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TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
Fair Work Act 2009 1050529-1
VICE PRESIDENT CATANZARITI
AM2013/46 AM2013/47 AM2014/7
s.158 - Application to vary or revoke a modern award
Applications by United Voice and Independent Education Union of Australia
(AM2013/46 AM2013/47 AM2014/7)
Educational Services (Teachers) Award 2010
(ODN AM2008/33)
[MA000077 Print PR988937]]
(ODN AM2008/77)
[MA000120 PrintPR991088]]
Sydney
10.28AM, MONDAY, 25 AUGUST 2014
PN1
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Could I have the appearances, please.
PN2
MR J. NOLAN: May it please your Honour, I appear for United Voice in this matter. With me at the bar table is MS G. STARR from United Voice. I think I've been given to permission to appear previously, but, if I haven't, might I make an application for permission to appear.
PN3
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, permission is granted to all the parties in this matter.
PN4
MR NOLAN: Thank you.
PN5
MS L. ANDELMAN: If the commission pleases, Andelman, initial L. I appear for the Independent Education Union. I seek leave to appear.
PN6
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Thank you, Ms Andelman.
PN7
MR N. WARD: If the commission pleases, my name is Ward, initial N. I appear with MR M. ROUCEK, who is behind me at the second bar table, appearing for Australian Business Industrial and the New South Wales Business Chamber Ltd.
PN8
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Thank you, Mr Ward.
PN9
MR S. FORSTER: If the commission pleases, Forster, for the Australian Federation of Employers and Industries.
PN10
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Thank you, Mr Forster.
PN11
MR J. GUNN: If the commission pleases, Gunn, initial J., for CCSA.
PN12
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Thank you, Mr Gunn.
PN13
MR NOLAN: Your Honour, I know it's always a bit of an anti-climax to start by talking about housekeeping matters, but it might be useful to do that in this case. As you know, we've got someone from Brisbane on the video-link.
PN14
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN15
MR NOLAN: And the request has been made by the Brisbane folk to have their submissions dealt with and let them go on their way. That's probably a sensible suggestion. I don't think anyone at the bar table disagrees with that, so we're really in your Honour's hands about that as a matter of programming.
PN16
THE VICE PRESIDENT: After all the trouble we had this morning with the video-link, it's probably not a bad idea.
PN17
MR NOLAN: Use it while we've got it, yes.
PN18
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN19
MR NOLAN: That's right. We would see the order of events as being perhaps, first of all, to formally acknowledge that the matter has been listed and not require anything by way of opening statements really because the parties have put all their material on in written form. Perhaps go then straightaway to our friend from Brisbane and then, having finished with him, go into the evidence. As I understand it, there are three witnesses who will be required for cross-examination. Two of them are Ms Andelman's witnesses and one of them is ours.
PN20
I think one IEU witness will be available to be cross-examined as soon as we're finished with the Brisbane submissions and then the United Voice witness will be available; but I think the second IEU witness is not available until tomorrow, so there might be a bit of stopping and starting. All things considered, I think we can be very confident the matter will be well and truly finished tomorrow and, I would have thought, finished not that soon after the second witness is heard from. That's the batting order as I would see it. Unless somebody else objects strenuously or unless you've got another idea, I would have thought that's the way we go forward.
PN21
THE VICE PRESIDENT: No, that sounds good. Is there any objection to that before I go to Mr Shingles in Brisbane? Mr Shingles?
PN22
MR J. SHINGLES: Thank you, your Honour. Might I be permitted to also retain my seat in view of the technological challenges?
PN23
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, absolutely.
PN24
MR SHINGLES: Thank you very much. I also am aware that I haven't formally entered an appearance, so just to do that very quickly: Shingles, initial J., of Livingstones, on behalf of the Australian Childcare Centres Association and the Australian Childcare Alliance. Yes, as has just been indicated, our instructions are to rely on the written submissions that have been provided and as we are not seeking to cross-examine any of the witnesses that are being called, we'd seek to excuse ourselves after doing so, subject to anything that your Honour might wish to raise with us.
PN25
Quite simply and briefly in relation to our submissions, one of the major points of debate relates to an agreement that was entered with the association that we represent. It has been suggested that the reason for the transitional provisions - the origin of that - is the full bench's concern at least in part for the preservation of rates struck under the New South Wales work value and equal remuneration provisions. We've stated in our submission we reject that assertion. We do so because we consider that it was a matter that the full bench took into consideration; the consent of the employer parties to the transitional provisions.
PN26
We also note that despite the references to the New South Wales jurisdiction in putting forward this assertion that it was out of concern for pay equity decisions, that in fact the transitional provisions in question also extend to other states, being Western Australia and Tasmania. Subclauses 8.3.7 and 8.3.8 of the Children's Services Award 2010 are not limited to the New South Wales jurisdiction and we consider that that also flies in the face of the assertion that this was out of concern for the pay equity decisions in New South Wales. We've dealt with that matter in our submissions and refer to the relevant parts of transcript that we see make that clear.
PN27
We also assert, contrary to the applicants, that it was a fundamental understanding of the parties that these transitional provisions would expire on 1 July 2014. That was a sensible arrangement to align with the more standard transitional provisions in other awards and it was, we say, a clear part of the understanding and the basis upon which the employer parties consented to that arrangement.
PN28
You might take our opposition to the current application as another clear sign that it's not possible to assert in retrospect that had the expiry date of 31 December been proposed as distinct from 1 July, that the same consent arrangement would have been reached. There was originally reliance placed on the event of the equal remuneration order decision as providing a further justification for the extension of these transitional provisions.
PN29
I think it's appropriate at this point to identify that that particular matter is currently at the stage of considering the relevant legislation and conceptual framework for which we are still waiting on a decision, so it would seem that the prospect of having a decision in that matter by the end of the year is remote, to say the least. Really those are the only matters that we would seek to raise in oral submissions. We otherwise rely on our written submissions, unless there are any particular questions from your Honour.
PN30
THE VICE PRESIDENT: No, I think you have made your position pretty clear and I've read the written submissions. Thank you, Mr Shingles. You can be excused.
PN31
MR SHINGLES: Thank you, your Honour.
PN32
THE VICE PRESIDENT: That will make things easier now; we'll disconnect to Brisbane.
PN33
MS ANDELMAN: Your Honour, Ms Verena Heron has prepared an affidavit and she is required for cross-examination. She is available now. Can I hand up some of the very bulky attachments. We have tabbed up the pages that are referred to in Ms Heron's affidavit.
PN34
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Do you want to do that before we swear in Ms Heron?
PN35
MS ANDELMAN: Yes.
PN36
THE VICE PRESIDENT: We'll just swear the witness in first.
PN37
MS ANDELMAN: Very well.
<VERENA HERON, AFFIRMED [10.37AM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS ANDELMAN [10.37AM]
MS ANDELMAN: Ms Heron, do you have a copy of the affidavit that you prepared on 6 June 2014?---Yes, I do.
PN39
Are the contents of that true and correct?---Yes, they are.
PN40
Your Honour, I tender that.
PN41
MR WARD: Your Honour, we have a series of objections to the affidavit. The question is when you want to deal with them.
PN42
THE VICE PRESIDENT: We'll deal with them now, I think.
PN43
MR WARD: We've put the unions on notice of this last week. If I can perhaps just deal with them sequentially and then your Honour might - - -
PN44
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN45
MR WARD: We object to paragraph 8. That is nothing more than opinion. The witness is not an expert. There is no qualification to the basis upon which that evidence could be given and we object to it on those grounds. We object to - - -
PN46
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I think we'll do it objection by objection, Mr Ward.
PN47
MR WARD: If your Honour pleases.
PN48
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I will rule on each one of them. Paragraph 8 in the statement, there are two main employer representative bodies in New South Wales. That's the paragraph you're drawing my attention to.
**** VERENA HERON XN MS ANDELMAN
PN49
MS ANDELMAN: Your Honour, I may be able to assist. There are a number of paragraphs that we don't seek to read.
PN50
THE VICE PRESIDENT: That will short-circuit things. Which ones are those?
PN51
MS ANDELMAN: They are paragraph 8; paragraph 9; the whole of paragraph 32; the whole of paragraph 35. There are objections - I think the next paragraph is paragraph 10, on the basis that it's an opinion.
PN52
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, let's just hear from Mr Ward first. Mr Ward?
PN53
MR WARD: Sorry, your Honour. I'm just trying to catch up with - - -
PN54
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Just so we're clear, paragraphs 8 and 9 are out. We're now up to paragraph 10, Mr Ward.
PN55
MR WARD: No, we don't press any objection to 10, your Honour. We object to 27 on the grounds of opinion, particularly the reference to -
PN56
volunteer parents' committees with little or no expertise in employment matters.
PN57
The witness can't be in a position to actually make that statement with any proper basis or authority.
PN58
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Do you want to say anything about that, Ms Andelman?
PN59
MS ANDELMAN: Yes, your Honour. We say the witness is a person who has over 25 years of experience working in the industry and she does have specialised knowledge to make that statement.
**** VERENA HERON XN MS ANDELMAN
PN60
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I think it will be a matter of weight. I'll allow paragraph 27 in.
PN61
MR WARD: The next objection is to 31, your Honour. We object to the first sentence on the same basis as the objection to 27. Also, we object to the last sentence. There's no basis upon which the witness could understand whether or not a service will or will not struggle to determine the correct rates of pay for their staff. The witness is not giving evidence on behalf of a service and that can be no more than opinion or speculation.
PN62
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Ms Andelman, what do you want to say about paragraph 31?
PN63
MS ANDELMAN: Yes, we say it's proper for the witness to be able to make that statement and it's based on her specialist knowledge.
PN64
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, I'll allow the first part of paragraph 31 on the same basis, but I reject the last sentence of paragraph 31.
PN65
MR WARD: Our next objection is to paragraph 34. The witness is seeking to put themselves in the shoes of an employer - that is, an unnamed employer - and state what that employer may or may not do. There's no proper basis for the witness to - - -
PN66
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes. I'll reject paragraph 34.
PN67
Ms Heron, we're back to your statement again?---Yes.
PN68
It will be exhibit 1.
**** VERENA HERON XN MS ANDELMAN
EXHIBIT #1 AFFIDAVIT OF MS HERON DATED 06/06/2014
MS ANDELMAN: Your Honour, there are two annexures and what we've done is we've tabbed up those pages that are referred to in Ms Heron's affidavit. I've provided a copy to the other parties.
PN70
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Thank you.
PN71
MS ANDELMAN: I have no further questions.
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WARD [10.42AM]
MR WARD: We've met before, but just for the record my name is Nigel Ward and I appear for the employer interests in these proceedings. I'll be considerably shorter than I anticipated, given what has occurred in terms of what has been pressed or admitted?---Yes.
PN73
Can I just start, first of all, by way of some clarification. Your statement says that you commenced working as a union official in 1989, at paragraph 3?---Yes.
PN74
Before that you say between 1985 to 1986 you were "at the school and branch level. I was a member of the IEU." Does that mean you were a teacher at a school or - - -?---Yes, I was.
PN75
Which school was that?---Marist Brothers, Penshurst.
PN76
Is that a secondary school?---It's combined - at that time it was a combined primary, secondary, up to year 10 school.
PN77
It wasn't a preschool?---No, there was no preschool.
PN78
**** VERENA HERON XXN MR WARD
Is that the only school you've worked at?---Yes.
PN79
I'd be right then in saying you've never worked in a preschool or a long day care centre in Tasmania?---No.
PN80
In Western Australia?---No.
PN81
In the opening of your statement it says that you're employed as an industrial officer by the New South Wales Independent Education Union. That's the New South Wales registered union?---Yes.
PN82
So your role relates to New South Wales?---It does, although I've represented the union at a federal level on federal bodies as a representative on a national level, if that makes sense.
PN83
It does. In terms of your day job, what you do, you do that in New South Wales?
---Yes.
PN84
You don't do it in Western Australia?---No. I have contact with our branches interstate in dealing with federal issues.
PN85
I'll ask the question again. Your day job is in New South Wales. You don't do your day job in Western Australia?---No.
PN86
And you don't do your day job in Tasmania?---That's correct.
PN87
My friend just wondered what your day job was. Perhaps we could come to that. You say in paragraph 3, "I have overall responsibility for negotiations with early childhood employers"?---That's correct.
PN88
**** VERENA HERON XXN MR WARD
Can you explain, for my benefit and the Commissioner's benefit, what that actually involves?---I suppose there are two aspects to it. I mean, if there is a national body employer such as Goodstart, I am the key person doing the negotiations on behalf of the national employer. In New South Wales, if there are agreements that we're negotiating on behalf of employers, whether they be small employers or, I suppose, multi-centre employers, I'd be responsible overall for the negotiation of those agreements. I'm also involved in any award matters that might come up with those.
PN89
If we take somebody like Goodstart, who - I think your evidence is they're a big employer?---Yes.
PN90
You are actually at the table doing the bargaining?---Yes, I am.
PN91
If I understand you, if it was a smaller employer, you might not actually be at the table doing the bargaining?---It really varies from centre to centre, but, no, I'm not always at the table. Frequently they're done by our members at the centre, with overall responsibility coming back to me.
PN92
So in terms of sitting at the bargaining table leading the negotiations - - -?---Yes.
PN93
- - - how many agreements would you do that for each year?---At the bargaining table?
PN94
Yes?---I think we'd have to say that I'd probably - for large employers, there are probably - I'm at the bargaining table for all the ones that are listed in my statement. The smaller ones, I'm talking to the management committee either by phone or on personal visits. 50 or 60 of those.
PN95
So you actually sit at the bargaining table for 50 or 60, or those are the ones you - - -?---Yes. I think you have to understand the industry maybe a bit better than you're portraying. It's not like a large manufacturing industry or a blue collar industry where there is - the negotiations are much more informal, I could say, than what they are in other industries, if I could put it that way.
**** VERENA HERON XXN MR WARD
PN96
So of the 190 enterprise agreements that your union has, how many of those were renegotiated last year?---Probably 50 or 60 of them since 2014.
PN97
So you personally negotiated all 50 or 60?---I personally oversee the agreements.
PN98
That's what you do?---Yes.
PN99
A very busy job?---It is.
PN100
How often do you physically visit a centre, given that you've got that very busy job?---On average, once a fortnight I visit somewhere.
PN101
Mostly in Sydney?---Sydney and in the country, but mainly the metropolitan area. Frequently Newcastle, Wollongong areas.
PN102
Can I take you to paragraph 18 of your statement. Could you assist me in understanding where table 4.6.2 is in the census document.
PN103
THE VICE PRESIDENT: You might assist me at the same time?---It's about halfway through the tables.
PN104
MR WARD: What page are you on?---It's actually on these large documents. Can I just explain that this census came with an attachment of fairly large tables, right, which were a separate attachment which I did provide to you. I provided both of - - -
PN105
I think we got those on Friday?---Yes. They came separate to the actual draft report.
PN106
**** VERENA HERON XXN MR WARD
So it's not in the report?---They're an attachment to a report. The report came in two parts. One was this bit of it here, which is the workforce census, and then the reports were attached as a separate attachment. I'm afraid they came out as very big - - -
PN107
This actually isn't a question. I was just trying to understand where it was?---Yes, I realise it's very difficult because - I had difficulty myself.
PN108
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Ms Andelman, I might get you to put a sticker on my document, so we have the same page.
PN109
MR WARD: Am I right in saying then that the table referred to in paragraph 20 is also in the attachments rather than the report?---I'm sorry? It's in the attachments to the report.
PN110
Right. Not in the report itself?---Yes.
PN111
Can I take you then to paragraph 21. You reference there table 6.21 on page 32 and 6.32 on page 34. Is that the one that's in the report?---They're all in - of the tables and I don't believe they're in the report. They could be. Sorry, I've been using the larger table.
PN112
There's a table at page 32 of the census report?---Yes.
PN113
That's what you're referring to in paragraph 21?---Yes.
PN114
Do you have that in front of you?---Yes.
PN115
Can I just ask you some questions on that. Do you agree with me that - and I'm looking here at the "Total" column on the right-hand side?---Yes.
**** VERENA HERON XXN MR WARD
PN116
There's a heading in that table that says Job Satisfaction.
PN117
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr Ward, just so I follow which page you're on and which document - - -
PN118
MR WARD: Your Honour, I'm talking about this document; the Social Research Centre - - -
PN119
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I have that, yes.
PN120
MR WARD: Page 32, which is referenced in paragraph 21.
PN121
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Page 32. At the moment my pages don't seem to be numbered?---They're numbered at the top. If it's possible, if we could have another copy of the report. This one is not properly - - -
PN122
Good. I'm not going crazy?---Sorry. I apologise for that.
PN123
MS ANDELMAN: Your Honour, in my report I've actually tabbed up the relevant page numbers.
PN124
MR WARD: If you look down the left-hand side, it has a heading Job Satisfaction. As I understand this table, it's in agreement with the attitude statement?---Yes.
PN125
The first statement is, "I am satisfied with my job," and it says, "Per cent agree," and then below it, it says, "Per cent disagree." If we go to the far right-hand side it says 87 per cent agree with the statement, "I am satisfied with my job." That's correct?---Yes.
**** VERENA HERON XXN MR WARD
PN126
And it says that only 3.2 per cent disagree with the statement, "I am satisfied with my job." You see that?---Yes.
PN127
So what this report tells us is that only 3.2 per cent of the people surveyed are dissatisfied with their job. Isn't that correct?---Yes.
PN128
In your experience, that sounds like a remarkably low number for dissatisfaction with a job. I think it was some 17,000 people surveyed here?---I think you'd have to look at what the other questions are within - and why it - - -
PN129
You don't think it's a low number?---Pardon?
PN130
You don't think that's a low number of dissatisfaction?---No. Not necessarily, no.
PN131
I just have a very different experience as to - - -
PN132
MR ……….: Just be careful what you - - -
PN133
MR WARD: You've got somebody on your right who knows the answer to that.
PN134
You then see there's a statement that says, "I am satisfied with my pay and conditions." It says, "Per cent agree, 48.9. Per cent disagree, 30.4." You see that?---Mm'hm.
PN135
Now, that's not what your statement says, is it, in paragraph 21? I take it you've just got the numbers wrong in paragraph 21?---Yes. I'm sorry, could you repeat the question.
PN136
If you go to paragraph 21, you say - - -?---Yes.
**** VERENA HERON XXN MR WARD
PN137
- - - on the third line, "48.9 per cent of the respondents are dissatisfied with pay and conditions." Where did you get that from?---From my experience in talking to members, when we were talking to them about their pay and conditions - - -
PN138
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Ms Heron, I don't want to talk across you, but you're not answering the question that has been put. In fairness, you might have to re-put the question.
PN139
MR WARD: If you could go to paragraph 21?---Yes.
PN140
If you read that, you say, "48.9 per cent of the respondents are dissatisfied with pay and conditions"?---Yes.
PN141
"See table 6.2.1 - - -"?---Yes.
PN142
- - - "on page 32 and table 6.3.2 on page 34"?---Yes.
PN143
Where does that appear in those tables?---Well, over 50 per cent of people - when you say unsatisfied with pay and conditions, 48 per cent are satisfied and 50 per cent are unsatisfied, right?
PN144
No, that's not what this table says. Let me take you to it. You see it says, "I am satisfied with my pay and conditions?" You see that in the table?---Yes.
PN145
"Per cent agree"?---"Per cent agree."
PN146
48.9 per cent agree?---Yes.
PN147
That's the opposite of what you put in your affidavit. You said 48.9 per cent are dissatisfied. This table says 48.9 per cent are satisfied?---I would say that it should be 30.4, if we go down to the next - - -
**** VERENA HERON XXN MR WARD
PN148
Right. 30.4 per cent are dissatisfied with their pay and conditions?---Yes.
PN149
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Are you satisfied, Mr Ward, that that is an error in the - - -
PN150
MR WARD: I'd assumed it would be. I thought the witness would have just said that.
PN151
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes?---Sorry, I wasn't sure what you were driving at.
PN152
I think we'll note that paragraph 21 of the table indicates a different figure and the correct figure is 30.4.
PN153
MR WARD: If I can take you down then to - it says, "Career in ECEC sector. If I could leave the sector today - - -"?---Yes.
PN154
Per cent agree, 11.2 per cent?---Yes.
PN155
That's not a very high percentage of people wanting to leave the sector, is it?
---No, but it takes in all classifications within the sector.
PN156
So you're agreeing with me; it's not a very high percentage of people who want to leave the sector?---Yes, but it hasn't been broken down into the various classifications.
PN157
I think you've agreed with me. I take it that's because most people are satisfied with their job. 87 per cent are satisfied?---I couldn't answer that.
PN158
No, you couldn't, could you?---No.
**** VERENA HERON XXN MR WARD
PN159
No. We'll let the table speak for itself. Your Honour, on the basis of what was struck out or not pressed, I have no further questions.
PN160
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Does anybody else wish to ask Ms Heron - - -
MR FORSTER: Not from AFEI. No, thank you, your Honour.
PN161
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr Gunn?
PN162
MR GUNN: No.
PN163
MR NOLAN: I suppose I should indicate informally I didn't want to question the witness.
PN164
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes.
PN165
MS ANDELMAN: I just have one question in re-examination, your Honour.
PN166
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, Ms Andelman.
<RE-EXAMINATION BY MS ANDELMAN [11.01AM]
MS ANDELMAN: Ms Heron, if I could ask you to have a look on page 34 of the Social Research Centre - that's annexure 2?---Yes.
PN168
Now, that's table 6.32?---Yes, that's correct.
PN169
Can you see in the dark blue there is "PS", the titles; those acronyms. Do you know what "PS" stands for?---Going across the top of the table, it's preschool; long day care; family day care; in-home care; occasional care; outside of school hours care; vacation care.
**** VERENA HERON RXN MS ANDELMAN
PN170
This application is in regard to long day care and PS, isn't it?---Yes. That's the first two columns.
PN171
So the dissatisfaction with pay and conditions in those columns is the relevant percentages?---Yes, that's correct.
PN172
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Anything arising from that before I ask a question?
PN173
If we're now focused on the same tables, in fact the percentage of people who are actually satisfied with the job in the relevant cohort, would you agree, for PS is 89.6, which is higher than the mean? Yes or no?---I'm sorry, could you repeat that?
PN174
The mean is 87. We've been drawn attention to that?---Yes.
PN175
And for PS it actually is 89.6?---Yes.
PN176
So it would show that there's a greater level of satisfaction in preschools if we focus on the tables?---I think there's a greater satisfaction in preschools than long day care because of the difference in working conditions.
PN177
Does anything arise from that answer? You're excused?---Thank you.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [11.03AM]
MR NOLAN: Your Honour, things moved a little bit more smartly than we had anticipated and we'd asked for Ms Howcher to come down to put her on next. I'm just wondering if you might indulge us and take a short break for 10 minutes or so, so we can - - -
PN179
THE VICE PRESIDENT: We'll take a 15-minute adjournment.
PN180
MR NOLAN: Yes. Thank you.
<SHORT ADJOURNMENT [11.04AM]
<RESUMED [11.19PM]
PN181
MR NOLAN: Thank you, your Honour. I just reminded myself that we have of course got two witnesses and Ms Korlevska wasn't required for cross-examination. Might it be convenient just to admit and mark her witness statement now before we get to Ms Howcher?
PN182
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes. Why don't we swear the witness and I'll find it in a minute.
PN183
MR NOLAN: Sorry? We can deal with it later.
PN184
THE VICE PRESIDENT: We can deal with it later.
PN185
MR NOLAN: Yes. I call Ms Howcher to the witness box now, please.
PN186
MR ROUCEK: Your Honour, if it assists, I've got a list of objections to that evidence. Is now an opportune time to press those?
PN187
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Why don't we swear the witness in first.
PN188
THE ASSOCIATE: Please state your full name and address for the record.
PN189
MS HOWCHER: Doumuoa Diab Howcher, (address supplied).
<DOUMUOA DIAB HOWCHER, SWORN [11.20AM]
<EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR NOLAN [11.20AM]
MR NOLAN: Can you, first of all, just state your full name and your work address for the record, please?---My full name is Doumuoa Diab Howcher. My work address is 187 Thomas Street, Haymarket.
PN191
Now, you've caused to be prepared for your evidence in this matter a witness statement. That was dated 9 June 2014, consisting of some 39 paragraphs. Do you have that with you in the witness box?---Yes, I do.
PN192
We'll deal with some objections in a moment, but do you say the contents of the witness statement are true and correct?---Yes.
PN193
We'll move to the objections.
PN194
THE VICE PRESIDENT: We'll make that exhibit 2. Is that convenient?
PN195
MR NOLAN: Thank you.
EXHIBIT #2 WITNESS STATEMENT OF MS HOWCHER DATED 09/06/2014
THE VICE PRESIDENT: We'll now deal with the objections.
PN197
MR ROUCEK: Your Honour, paragraph 28 - it consists of one sentence. We say that it's opinion and conclusion. We don't know who the particular workers are. We don't know whether they're very likely to be studying for a qualification and we say that's opinion and conclusion.
PN198
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Does it really take the matter any further?
PN199
**** DOUMUOA DIAB HOWCHER XN MR NOLAN
MR NOLAN: Well, your Honour, really the witness has given direct evidence about her experience and the paragraph immediately before that talks about her experience with younger workers and so on. It flows from paragraph 27 and surely it's an observation she can make. It's not comprehensive. It's the kind of observation, with respect, that this tribunal would traditionally admit subject to weight.
PN200
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, but it's one thing to say "some of these workers might be likely" and another thing to say "are also very likely". It would suggest the majority. That's a bit difficult to qualify the cohort. I'll give you another chance to fix it, but I'm going to reject it in its current form.
PN201
MR NOLAN: All right.
PN202
MR ROUCEK: At paragraph 36, we say that the entire paragraph consisting of three sentences is hearsay and opinion. We don't know which particular part of the cohort they are. We don't know whether they have just left school or whether they may be one or two years out of school. We don't know which ones are trying to find their feet or trying to find a job.
PN203
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr Nolan, I'll take it sentence by sentence.
PN204
MR NOLAN: She is surely entitled to make that first observation, namely:
PN205
The lower classifications are untrained and unqualified educators.
PN206
I would have thought that's obvious.
PN207
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, that one, there's no problem.
PN208
**** DOUMUOA DIAB HOWCHER XN MR NOLAN
MR NOLAN: Typically starting, yes. They may have just left school or be one or two years out of school. That's something she can observe from her experience in dealing with these people, one would have thought. It's hardly a matter for contention. One would have thought the next sentence really flows from that; having left school or being only a couple of years out of school, naturally they're trying to find their feet in the workforce when they're that early in their career. I would have thought it's unexceptionable.
PN209
THE VICE PRESIDENT: At the end of the day, the last two sentences are a matter of weight, so I'll let the sentences - - -
PN210
MR NOLAN: Well, that's right. We have more.
PN211
MR ROUCEK: Paragraph 37. There are significant problems, in our submission, with paragraph 37 and also with paragraph 38. In the same way, the paragraph is a submission. It's argumentative. There is a lot of opinion contained there about employees that she professes to know about as a result of her experience as having been a director in the past. We don't know who the employees are. We don't know whether they're undertaking unpaid overtime or not. Then there is a question posed in evidence:
PN212
Is it really worth sacrificing time with my son for these wages?
PN213
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr Nolan?
PN214
MR NOLAN: Once again, your Honour, it's perfectly unexceptionable for such an observation - - -
PN215
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I don't think 37 is unexceptionable, Mr Nolan, in its current form. Okay, Mr Nolan, what I propose to do is I'll allow the first sentence and I'll strike out the rest of the paragraph.
**** DOUMUOA DIAB HOWCHER XN MR NOLAN
PN216
MR NOLAN: May it please your Honour.
PN217
THE VICE PRESIDENT: You've got an opportunity to fix it.
PN218
MR NOLAN: All right.
PN219
MR ROUCEK: Thank you, your Honour. In paragraph 38, the first sentence:
PN220
Our members deserve to be able to live a quality way of life and not just make ends meet -
PN221
is a submission. It's certainly not evidence. The second sentence:
PN222
I think that any reduction from the already relatively low wages in the industry is unjustified and will not lead to stability of staff within centres, which is very important for young children.
PN223
I mean, there is opinion throughout that. There is also a claim to know stability of staff within centres and the running of centres. The witness hasn't demonstrated competence for that evidence.
PN224
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr Nolan, what do you say about paragraph 38?
PN225
MR NOLAN: Well, she has, one would have thought, significant qualifications to make those observations having worked as a director. True it is that 38 is in the nature of a contention or submission, but one would have thought it's something that's admissible with appropriate weight having regard to her particular qualifications.
PN226
**** DOUMUOA DIAB HOWCHER XN MR NOLAN
THE VICE PRESIDENT: No, I reject paragraph 38. I think you can deal with it via submissions really. It's just too broad brush in its current form.
PN227
MR NOLAN: All right.
PN228
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Anything else?
PN229
MR ROUCEK: No, your Honour.
PN230
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Thank you, Mr Nolan.
PN231
MR NOLAN: Perhaps I can just ask a couple of questions, if I may, Ms Howcher. Just going back to that paragraph 28 in your statement - that was one of the ones that was objected to - you see there you say, "These workers are also - - -"
PN232
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Paragraph 28 doesn't actually exist of course now.
PN233
MR NOLAN: I'm sorry?
PN234
THE VICE PRESIDENT: It has been struck out.
PN235
MR NOLAN: I thought your Honour gave me leave to - - -
PN236
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, but not by going back and repeating what paragraph 28 says, Mr Nolan.
PN237
MR NOLAN: No, I was just directing - - -
PN238
THE VICE PRESIDENT: There's a better way of doing it.
**** DOUMUOA DIAB HOWCHER XN MR NOLAN
PN239
MR NOLAN: I was directing her attention to that paragraph so that I could then go on to ask - - -
PN240
THE VICE PRESIDENT: There is a better way, Mr Nolan.
PN241
MR NOLAN: All right.
PN242
Ms Howcher, you give evidence in paragraph 27 of experience with dealing with younger workers in the sector. Do you see that?---What was that? Sorry.
PN243
In paragraph 27, you give evidence about your experience dealing with younger workers in the sector. Can you see that?---We see that on a daily basis.
PN244
And have you had occasion to speak to young workers about whether or not they're taking up study opportunities in the pursuit of their careers in the sector?
---Every day we do that and, along with the new National Quality Framework, you now have to have minimum qualifications.
PN245
Yes. In your experience, how many - if you can, as a percentage - of the workforce in that younger cohort would be pursuing those qualifications?
---Currently there are about 50 per cent of the service actually pursuing those qualifications, because of its recommendations.
PN246
You speak yourself to these workers frequently, do you?---We speak to them on a daily basis.
PN247
Yes?---A minimum of 20 to 25 per week actually.
PN248
At paragraph 36, you gave some evidence about the lower classifications; namely, the untrained and unqualified educators. Once again, in your experience are these people who are - well, how frequent are these recent school leavers?---A year out, two years out of school, and I also talk experienced as an owner, but also in the experience of working for one of the biggest companies in Australia.
**** DOUMUOA DIAB HOWCHER XN MR NOLAN
PN249
Could you put a percentage on the number of workers would be recent school leavers? That is to say, one or two years out of school?---I would say potentially probably one in every three services has young, untrained staff in their services.
PN250
In terms of the numbers of workers though, what percentage of the workforce in the centre would that typically constitute?---In the workforce you would have, depending on qualifications and I guess the rooms they're in because of the qualifications - - -
PN251
Yes?---You can potentially have anywhere - it depends on the size - between two to four young, untrained staff working towards trainee; so working towards an apprenticeship.
PN252
And how many would there be in that kind of centre? How many employees in total would there be in a centre like that?---In a centre like that, potentially a large service, between 10 to 15 staff.
PN253
10 to 15. Yes, that's the evidence-in-chief, may it please your Honour.
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROUCEK [11.30AM]
MR ROUCEK: Ms Howcher, my name is Michael Roucek. I am a solicitor for Australian Business Lawyers and Advisors. You're an industrial organiser with United Voice, aren't you?---No, sir.
PN255
You have in the past been an industrial organiser?---I'm actually an organiser where I go out and organise services, but I'm not an industrial organiser.
PN256
So when you say you organise services, can you explain what that entails?---Yes, sir. So my role is to go out and speak with educators about their day-to-day work, but also about our campaign that we currently have; Quality Matters. It's very different to the industrial side. I don't look after the industrial side. I work with them and talk with them about their day-to-day and campaign work.
**** DOUMUOA DIAB HOWCHER XXN MR ROUCEK
PN257
So campaign is not industrial work?---No.
PN258
Who runs that campaign?---Who runs the campaign?
PN259
Yes?---Well, it's a national campaign right across Australia and so we organisers go out and work with educators to get them to join the campaign, and lobby governments in regards to professional wages, professional recognition, changeover and stuff like that.
PN260
So your role is to ask workers to become involved in other matters outside of the workplace?---Absolutely, and it's also about identifying those leaders who believe they deserve more.
PN261
It's part of your job to take part in these sorts of matters, is it?---Yes, it is, sir.
PN262
In your role, you're able to agitate for change for the benefit of those workers?
---Well, I can't advocate for anything. They have to advocate for themselves, sir.
PN263
But you would prompt them to take action?---I would go out there and tell them what options they have or what - you know, hear their stories about whatnot and let them know that there is an organisation that wants the best for them, and there is a campaign going right now for them that they can join to make those - - -
PN264
What is the name of that organisation?---United Voice.
PN265
United Voice. Okay. Really it is to agitate for change for the benefit of United Voice?---For the benefit of the workers.
PN266
You say in paragraph 1 of your statement that it's in support of this application. Is that right?---Yes. Well, it's United Voice who is the one that made that - - -
**** DOUMUOA DIAB HOWCHER XXN MR ROUCEK
PN267
So you're here to advocate for that?---I'm here to advocate basically for educators out in the sector and - - -
PN268
In support of United Voice's claim today?---In support of United Voice, because they're supporting the workers.
PN269
You say at paragraph 2, "This statement by me accurately sets out the evidence that I would be prepared, if necessary, to give to the Fair Work Commission." What do you mean by that? You did write this statement, didn't you?---Yes, I did, sir.
PN270
It says here that you'd "be prepared to give, if necessary". I mean, this is a statement that has been filed in the commission.
PN271
MR NOLAN: I object to the question, your Honour, and perhaps it would be appropriate to pursue the objection in the absence of the witness, but I think that's a bit too - - -
PN272
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Ms Howcher, could you just go outside for a moment, please.
PN273
MR NOLAN: Sorry about that. If you could just go outside for a moment.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [11.34AM]
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, I must say I got a bit lost with that question.
PN275
MR NOLAN: Yes. Look, I really think we're giving this issue more air time than it deserves. For Heaven's sake, I mean, that formulation is very often used in my experience as a formulation for statements that are made. There's nothing particularly sinister or opaque or oblique about it all. It's a formula that is not unusual to see. It simply says, "This statement - sets out - I would be prepared, if necessary, to give to the Fair Work Commission." Very often you won't be called to be cross-examined as she has.
PN276
She goes on to say, "The statement is true and correct to the best of my knowledge." Now, really it's a cheap shot, frankly, to start cross-examining a lay witness about that kind of formulation which is something that's put in in the preparation of a witness statement in proceedings such as this.
PN277
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes. What is the purpose of your cross-examination on that question?
PN278
MR ROUCEK: Your Honour, I'm quite happy not to continue along that line of questioning. I will desist.
PN279
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, I think it would be a bit unfortunate if people starting cross-examining on those sort of statements. Thank you. We'll bring the witness back in.
<DOUMUOA DIAB HOWCHER, ON FORMER OATH [11.36AM]
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROUCEK [11.36AM]
MR ROUCEK: Thank you, Ms Howcher, for coming back in. At paragraph 7 of your statement - you have that there - you say, "I look after the inner western Sydney, south-western Sydney, greater western Sydney. Basically anywhere within a two-hour drive of the CBD"?---Yes.
PN281
So your experience doesn't extend to, say, greater New South Wales or other parts of New South Wales?---Not myself personally, no, but the other organisers within our ECEC - - -
PN282
The matters you deal with are purely related to - - -?---I go anywhere within about a two-hour driving distance.
PN283
So it's not West Australia, not Tasmania?---No.
PN284
At paragraph 20, you refer to KU Children's Services and Goodstart Early Learning Centres. You make a series of observations about their businesses?
---Yes.
PN285
You say that KU Services typically have employees that are older than their counterparts in other centres and that Goodstart have younger employees?---Yes.
PN286
I just want to test that. Which KU centres are you referring to there?---A lot of them are preschool services. KU has a majority of their services that are actually preschool services. You go to their preschool services. There is a majority of older women in there.
PN287
Which centres were you referring to?---Sorry. For example, there's KU Concord; there's KU Petersham; there's KU Marrickville; there's KU Greenacre; there's KU down towards Yagoona.
**** DOUMUOA DIAB HOWCHER XXN MR ROUCEK
PN288
But not Maitland or Moss Vale or Wagga?---I've been to Moss Vale.
PN289
You've been to Moss Vale? That's within your - - -?---I've been to Moss Vale. I haven't been to Wagga, no.
PN290
Not Maitland?---No.
PN291
These workers you refer to, what are their names?---The workers I refer to - - -
PN292
Which ones are they?---For example, there's Kate Motley - - -
PN293
MR NOLAN: Your Honour, I mean, we'll be asking for their birthdays in a moment. It's quite absurd to ask a union organiser to reel off the names of all the people they've seen at a particular location. It really doesn't assist the commission, in my respectful submission.
**** DOUMUOA DIAB HOWCHER XXN MR ROUCEK
PN294
THE VICE PRESIDENT: What is the forensic purpose of this questioning?
PN295
MR ROUCEK: I want to illicit some facts from this evidence. At the moment it's quite generalised and I'd just like to know which employees, which centres, how old in fact these employees are.
PN296
THE VICE PRESIDENT: As much as I don't want to do this, Ms Howcher, could you please leave the room again.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [11.39AM]
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr Roucek, I'm having difficulty understanding where this is going in this sense: this witness is limiting her experience to a particular cohort, which is the inner western Sydney, south-western Sydney and greater western Sydney.
PN298
MR ROUCEK: Yes.
PN299
THE VICE PRESIDENT: She then says, based on that experience, she has been to a number of KU Children's Services. She acknowledges already that it's not every KU Children's Services and all she's saying is the people she has seen there are older employees. Surely that is giving you enough without names of people.
PN300
MR ROUCEK: Your Honour, I accept that. It's really in relation to the generality of the evidence that's before us.
PN301
THE VICE PRESIDENT: It's not that general. It's limited experience with a limited cohort, so you've got that concession that it is that limited experience. One cannot draw the whole profile of KU Children's Services out of this witness.
PN302
MR ROUCEK: Okay. I accept that, your Honour. Thank you.
<DOUMUOA DIAB HOWCHER, ON FORMER OATH [11.40AM]
<CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROUCEK [11.40AM]
MR ROUCEK: At paragraph 21 of your statement you say, "When meeting with employees, I'm often told of their difficults [sic] in making ends meet on very strict budgets." You'd agree with that? That's in your statement?---Yes.
PN304
You say they often have two or three jobs just to help them afford to live. Is that right?---Yes, sir.
PN305
These employees, do they have other financial commitments? Do they have other loans? I just need to know some information about who these employees are and what are their financial obligations?---Just like us, sir, they have rent to pay; they have bills to pay; they have petrol to pay; they have food to pay for; they've got kids to look after.
**** DOUMUOA DIAB HOWCHER XXN MR ROUCEK
PN306
Sure?---For example, Allie Nok has no debt to her name, who has three jobs; babysitting, works at a restaurant, works in rural education, a certificate III. Basically has her rent to pay and has - being a young - obviously has some debts to pay. Then you've got Kym Holloway, who lives out towards North Sydney and works in Lane Cove. The same issue; she has rent to pay, bills to pay. She has no debts on her, but the fact that she chooses to live, I guess, in an environment where she's more comfortable, she is not able to make ends meet; so she does something for the Cliphouses with two or three other mates to get income coming in.
PN307
All right. You referred there to certificates within the industry. I want to hand you a copy, first off, of the Children's Services Award and then a copy of also the Manufacturing Services Award.
PN308
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Do you want to have these marked for identification, Mr Roucek?
PN309
MR ROUCEK: Yes, please, your Honour.
THE VICE PRESIDENT: The two documents will be MFI 1 and MFI 2. MFI 1 will be the Children's Services Award and MFI 2 will be the Manufacturing and Associated Industries and Occupations Award.
MFI #1 COPY OF CHILDREN'S SERVICES AWARD
MFI #2 COPY OF MANUFACTURING AND ASSOCIATED INDUSTRIES AND OCCUPATIONS AWARD
MR ROUCEK: At paragraph 25 of your statement you say it's not just wages that are not as good as comparably trained vocations. It's the working conditions, as well. A certificate III child care worker - if you refer to clause 14 of the Children's Services Award, 14.1, you'll see there level 3.1 is a child care worker 3. Are you aware of that?---Level 3.1 on commission [sic].
**** DOUMUOA DIAB HOWCHER XXN MR ROUCEK
PN312
On commencement. Level 3.1 support worker on commencement receives $19.64 per hour?---Yes.
PN313
That person has obtained some qualifications in order to be at that level. What is the name of that qualification?---Certificate III.
PN314
Certificate III. I'm aware that a certificate III is a one-year qualification. Am I correct in saying that, full-time?---The traineeship, yes, sir.
PN315
Full-time, okay. If you go to the Manufacturing Award, and that's at clause 24 - - -
PN316
MR NOLAN: I object to this, your Honour. This witness is not somebody who can be expected to be familiar with or qualified in the intricacies of the Manufacturing Award. If submissions are going to be made about this, perhaps they can be made at the appropriate time. Alternatively, it could have been useful perhaps for the employer to put a statement on and present its own evidence in response to the union's evidence, but we can really hardly be assisted by some sort of question and answer exercise directed to the text of the Manufacturing Award.
PN317
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr Roucek, I'm not yet sure where we're going, before I can - - -
PN318
MR ROUCEK: I'm merely going to show her clause 24 of the award and the relevant rate of pay for a C10 rate, which is the certificate III trades rate.
PN319
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Doesn't the document speak for itself?
PN320
MR ROUCEK: Yes, it does, your Honour.
PN321
**** DOUMUOA DIAB HOWCHER XXN MR ROUCEK
THE VICE PRESIDENT: And then it can be dealt with by way of submission. I understand the point you're making.
PN322
MR ROUCEK: All right.
PN323
You say at paragraph 27 of your statement - you refer to younger workers who especially struggle as they're likely to be on junior and trainee rates. Those rates have been set by the tribunal, haven't they, carefully?---I believe so, sir.
PN324
At paragraphs 35 to 38 - and I'm aware that 37 and 38 have been dealt with in - - -
PN325
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Paragraphs 37 and 38, I'm not going to read. We shouldn't all be asking questions about paragraphs that don't exist.
PN326
MR ROUCEK: You say here, "I understand that commencing from 1 July 2014, the pay rates in a number of classifications will drop." You say at 36, "These lower classifications are untrained and unqualified educators. They may have just left the school, they may be one or two years out of school." Some rates have indeed dropped and some rates have gone up, haven't they?---I'm not aware of that, sir.
But as part of the process of these transitional rates, some industries have had rates that have gone up and some have had rates that have gone down. You'd accept that, wouldn't you?---I can't really - - -
PN327
MR NOLAN: I object to that, too. I mean, this is a master class of the award modernisation process. This witness can't be really expected to answer questions about that. Again, this is a matter for submissions when the time comes.
PN328
THE VICE PRESIDENT: When you used the word "industry" then, were you referring to beyond this industry?
**** DOUMUOA DIAB HOWCHER XXN MR ROUCEK
PN329
MR ROUCEK: Yes.
PN330
THE VICE PRESIDENT: How can this witness be confident about answering that question?
PN331
MR ROUCEK: Some rates have gone up, your Honour.
PN332
THE VICE PRESIDENT: In this industry?
PN333
MR ROUCEK: In the child care sector.
PN334
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Limiting it to this industry, yes, I'll allow the question.
PN335
MR ROUCEK: I'll rephrase that.
PN336
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Just rephrase it.
PN337
MR ROUCEK: Some rates in the country have actually gone up, haven't they?
PN338
MR NOLAN: I object again. The relevant rates are all set out in the text of this - - -
PN339
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I think he's entitled, Mr Nolan, to test the witness's understanding of this industry given that she comes here as an expert in the industry.
PN340
MR NOLAN: But not necessarily as an expert in the intricacies of the award process.
PN341
**** DOUMUOA DIAB HOWCHER XXN MR ROUCEK
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Well, let's just see where it takes us. It's matter for weight at the end - - -
PN342
MR NOLAN: Yes.
PN343
THE VICE PRESIDENT: - - - but I'm happy to allow that question.
PN344
MR ROUCEK: You say that the rates have dropped, but you're also aware that some of the rates have actually increased, aren't you?---In New South Wales.
PN345
No, across the country?---I look after New South Wales. I'm not aware of what's happening across the country.
PN346
All right. Thank you, Ms Howcher.
PN347
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Does anyone on this side of the bar table wish to ask questions?
PN348
MR WARD: No, your Honour.
PN349
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Mr Nolan?
PN350
MR NOLAN: There's no re-examination. Might the witness be excused, your Honour, subject of course to your Honour's - - -
PN351
THE VICE PRESIDENT: No, that's fine. Thank you, Ms Howcher, for your attendance today. You're excused.
<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [11.50AM]
PN353
MR NOLAN: Ms Korlevska's statement. That's right. Thank you, your Honour, for reminding me. Might that be admitted and marked as an exhibit.
PN354
THE VICE PRESIDENT: That will be exhibit 3.
EXHIBIT #3 WITNESS STATEMENT OF MS KORLEVSKA
MR NOLAN: I think we've collectively run out of steam for the day, I'm afraid to say. I think there is only the IEU witness who remains and she is on tomorrow.
PN356
MS ANDELMAN: That's right. If it's convenient, I've got two exhibits I could tender.
PN357
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes, we can put your exhibits in. Otherwise, we'll adjourn until tomorrow.
PN358
MS ANDELMAN: This is a draft report of the Productivity Commission on child care and early childhood learning, released in July 2014. Could I just refer your Honour to the relevant pages. It starts on page 472 and it's in regard to pay and conditions. I think it goes until page 483. There is reference to those pages in our submissions.
PN359
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Yes. We'll put that as exhibit 4.
EXHIBIT #4 DRAFT REPORT FROM PRODUCTIVITY COMMISSION RELEASED /07/2014
MR WARD: Your Honour, can we have a copy?
PN361
MS ANDELMAN: Yes, I'll get a copy for Mr Ward.
PN362
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Ms Andelman will provide a copy to you, Mr Ward.
PN363
MR WARD: Thank you, your Honour.
PN364
MS ANDELMAN: And I have a submission to the Productivity Commission Review by the Australian Childcare Alliance. Again, it's a substantial submission but I've only referred to that part of the submission that deals with the issues. That's on pages 39 to 44. Does your Honour have a copy?
PN365
THE VICE PRESIDENT: That's this document, I think, called "Submission to Productivity Commission Review into child care learning by Australian Childcare Alliance." Is that the document? Ms Andelman, is this the document, February 2014?
PN366
MS ANDELMAN: Yes.
PN367
THE VICE PRESIDENT: I have that document. That will be exhibit 5.
EXHIBIT #5 SUBMISSION TO PRODUCTIVITY COMMISSION REVIEW /02/2014
MS ANDELMAN: Our witness, Ms Inglis, will be available at 10 am.
PN369
THE VICE PRESIDENT: Anything further for today? No? The commission will stand adjourned until 10 o'clock tomorrow.
<ADJOURNED UNTIL TUESDAY, 26 AUGUST 2014 [11.53AM]
LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs
VERENA HERON, AFFIRMED PN38
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MS ANDELMAN PN38
EXHIBIT #1 AFFIDAVIT OF MS HERON DATED 06/06/2014 PN69
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WARD PN72
RE-EXAMINATION BY MS ANDELMAN PN167
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN178
DOUMUOA DIAB HOWCHER, SWORN PN190
EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR NOLAN PN190
EXHIBIT #2 WITNESS STATEMENT OF MS HOWCHER DATED 09/06/2014 PN196
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROUCEK PN254
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN274
DOUMUOA DIAB HOWCHER, ON FORMER OATH PN280
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROUCEK PN280
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN297
DOUMUOA DIAB HOWCHER, ON FORMER OATH PN303
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR ROUCEK PN303
MFI #1 COPY OF CHILDREN'S SERVICES AWARD PN310
MFI #2 COPY OF MANUFACTURING AND ASSOCIATED INDUSTRIES AND OCCUPATIONS AWARD PN311
THE WITNESS WITHDREW PN352
EXHIBIT #3 WITNESS STATEMENT OF MS KORLEVSKA PN355
EXHIBIT #4 DRAFT REPORT FROM PRODUCTIVITY COMMISSION RELEASED /07/2014 PN360
EXHIBIT #5 SUBMISSION TO PRODUCTIVITY COMMISSION REVIEW /02/2014 PN368