PN1

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Any changes to appearances? No?

PN2

MS N DABARERA: If the Commission pleases, Dabarera, initial N, appearing for United Voice and also for the HSU.

PN3

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Right, thank you. No other changes?

PN4

MR M NGUYEN: Deputy President, Mr Nguyen, initial M. I'm appearing. I'm appearing for the Australian Manufacturing Workers Union and also the Australian Workers Union today.

PN5

MR V ROGERS: Deputy President, it's Rogers, initial V from Ashurst appearing for Babcock Mission Critical Services Australasia Pty Ltd.

PN6

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. I think you need permission to appear, don't you sir?

PN7

MR ROGERS: Yes, we would ask that permission be granted.

PN8

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Any opposition to permission to appear?

PN9

MR NGUYEN: No, Deputy President.

PN10

MS DABARERA: No, Deputy President.

PN11

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. This hearing is a section 596 of the Fair Work Act 2009. Permission to appear is granted to enable the efficient conduct of proceedings.

PN12

We adjourned a report-back, was it last year or something, to enable the parties to narrow their differences. As I understood it, they both agreed that both the employer party appearing, Babcock and the unions agreed that a helicopter award be made covering crew. But disagreed on a number of issues. We therefore adjourned the matter to enable the parties to narrow their differences.

PN13

I don't think I've seen a report of narrowing done by the parties. Has there been any narrowing, are you still in identical disagreement?

PN14

MR NGUYEN: Yes, Deputy President, if I can just do a quick report back. We had a productive meeting yesterday between ourselves, the AMWU and also Babcock. The AWU wasn't able to attend but we had invited them and the issues relating to the HSU and United Voice, don't concern the entitlements which we were discussing, so they weren't in attendance. It was only the AMWU and Babcock in attendance at the meeting.

PN15

There were 15 issues which we discussed. Broadly, 15 issues which we discussed. Arising out of the discussion we confirmed that three of the issues we could not reach agreement about, but of the 12 remaining issues, in one of four categories of circumstance. The first one is we were in-principle agreement for on the issue. We've reached a position of in-principle agreement and we're at the stage of a party proposing to draft a clause to give effect to the in-principle agreement.

PN16

The second category is that we are seeking further instructions about a possible in-principle proposal. The third category is a further proposed draft is to be developed but no in-principal agreement as yet has been reached, but a further proposed draft based on the discussion - - -

PN17

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Are you referring to a document somewhere. You haven't mentioned what you're talking about. What's the document you're referring to?

PN18

MR NGUYEN: No, this is the first time. We only just had the meeting yesterday afternoon.

PN19

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You're referring to a number of items in the list. Where's this list?

PN20

MR NGUYEN: I've just written - put in my mind four broad categories to report back to the Commission about in terms of the issues.

PN21

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What are these categories?

PN22

MR NGUYEN: The 15 categories of disagreement were first outlined in Babcock's submission which is dated 6 December.

PN23

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Let's go to that then. Just bear with me. Just a minute I'll find the submissions. Yes, I've got the conclusion and there's A through to O, right? That's what you're talking about is it? Paragraph 102 of Babcock's submission has got A through to O of objections. Is that what you're talking about, or are you talking about something else?

PN24

MR NGUYEN: The agenda worked actually off paragraph 2 of their submissions.

PN25

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Paragraph 2. Let's have a look at paragraph 2.

PN26

MR NGUYEN: Just the headlines.

PN27

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, just bear with me. I've got it. Let's go start again. A, where have you got to on that? Clause 16.6? Agreed, disagreed?

PN28

MR NGUYEN: Yes.

PN29

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Would you like an adjournment to work out what you're talking about?

PN30

MR NGUYEN: No, Deputy President, I'm just opening my notes to the specific items. All the positions we reached on the items which are not yet agreed, they're all without prejudice, pending the final - until we actually reach final in-principle agreement. My report will just be, in some cases, will be our without prejudice positions that we've reached on the issue.

PN31

On transmission of business, we have taken into consideration the position put to us by Babcock in the meeting and we have undertaken - the AMWU has undertaken to get back to Babcock about whether we can agree to their position on that issue.

PN32

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That's a question mark? Classifications?

PN33

MR NGUYEN: Classifications, we are confirming in-principle agreement to their - we're taking back the definition which has been proposed by Babcock, and Babcock has undertaken to check which entitlements and conditions they believe will be affected by the proposed definition.

PN34

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: There's work to be done, but you're heading in the right direction; is that right?

PN35

MR NGUYEN: That's right.

PN36

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Annual increment.

PN37

MR NGUYEN: On the annual increment, Babcock is coming back to us with a more concrete proposal.

PN38

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That's uncertain - a question mark.

PN39

Safety equipment allowance.

PN40

MR NGUYEN: Safety equipment allowance we've reached in-principle agreement, we just need to draft a clause.

PN41

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes. Mobile intensive care ambulance allowance and other required additional cert allowance.

PN42

MR NGUYEN: Babcock is undertaking to draft a new clause to put back to us.

PN43

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That's a question mark.

PN44

Indemnity.

PN45

MR NGUYEN: Indemnity, we have reached in-principle agreement on indemnity.

PN46

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Insurance and income protection insurance.

PN47

MR NGUYEN: We dealt with them separately. Income protection - I'll deal with life insurance first. Life insurance and total permanent disability, Babcock have undertaken to come back to us about a specific issue.

PN48

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That's a question mark.

PN49

MR NGUYEN: Income protection - we don't agree.

PN50

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That's a disagree.

PN51

MR NGUYEN: That's a disagree.

PN52

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Accident pay.

PN53

MR NGUYEN: In-principle we agree; we just need to confirm the text of the clause.

PN54

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Multiple day tours.

PN55

MR NGUYEN: This one is requiring further discussion. We've undertaken to consider what Babcock have put to us. It's a complex issue, so we need to go back to them on this. We've undertaken to take on board what they've put to us in detail in yesterday's meeting and we're coming back to them about that clause.

PN56

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That's a question mark. Overtime.

PN57

MR NGUYEN: Overtime, that is a question mark. We've undertaken to come back to them about some issues, but we've taken on board what their concerns were and we are proposing to come back with a further position on a few issues.

PN58

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Annual leave.

PN59

MR NGUYEN: Annual leave, we've agreed in-principle on a number of the issues, but the issue that's related to the multiple day tours, we're going to have a further consideration about it and come back to them. But in relation to inserting the model clauses from the four yearly review common issue annual leave decision, we are in agreement about that. We're in agreement about the relationship of the 42 days' annual leave with the national employment standards.

PN60

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Personal carer's leave and compassionate leave.

PN61

MR NGUYEN: We have in-principle agreement on personal carer's leave and upper respiratory tract infection leave, but we're coming back to them about the compassionate leave.

PN62

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Public holidays.

PN63

MR NGUYEN: We're in agreement about the relationship between the 42 days and the public holidays, but there's some further discussion about that implementation and interaction.

PN64

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Is that a question mark then? A question mark?

PN65

MR NGUYEN: As it relates to the multiple day tours, yes.

PN66

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That list goes to M. The list of paragraph 102 goes to O, so have you left off something somewhere?

PN67

MR NGUYEN: Yes, during the meeting we also discussed jury service, which we come to understand that we will not reach agreement about.

PN68

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Fitness allowance.

PN69

MR NGUYEN: Also, with the fitness allowance, we also have come to an understanding that we won't be reaching agreement on the fitness allowance.

PN70

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Anything else? Is that it? What's your timeline?

PN71

MR NGUYEN: Let me just confirm. I think those are the 15 issues that we've just gone through.

PN72

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Yes, but what's the timeline, because we can be here forever exchanging drafts.

PN73

MR NGUYEN: That's right.

PN74

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You know, these things can go on forever, quite frankly. They have gone on for some time in these proceedings.

PN75

MR NGUYEN: We were thinking four to six weeks to exchange further drafts.

PN76

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: No, in terms of a final position, not further drafts. Because you can just keep going sending each other drafts. When are you going to reach a final position?

PN77

MR NGUYEN: We anticipate that we could be able to reach a final position within four to six weeks.

PN78

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: So, you say. I'll hold you to that. Is that all right?

PN79

MR NGUYEN: Well, we anticipate that's how long it will take us to conclude the process of exchanging further drafts.

PN80

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right, well I'll add another issue to your list. People shouldn't assume that simply because the parties or some want a helicopter award made, that such an award will be made. One of the achievements of the process of restructuring awards over the last 10 or 15 years, has been reducing numbers of awards. The question is, and this has been raised with you before, repeatedly. Why would you make a separate award for such a small group of employees?

PN81

I had a look at the aircraft - the Air Pilots Award. The Air Pilots Award, clause 14 includes helicopter operations. There's an accompanying Aircraft Cabin Crew Award which doesn't. It's quite possible that rather than set up a whole new award for a very small group of employees, that if it's agreed on award coverage, then one possibility is to include that coverage in one or other of those instruments, particularly since it's a precedent, given the helicopter pilots are covered by the Pilot's Award.

PN82

You should think about that as well. It has been raised with you in the past, repeatedly.

PN83

MR NGUYEN: Yes, we did propose that as an option in our original submission.

PN84

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You're possibly happy with that, is that right?

PN85

MR NGUYEN: Yes, that's right, Deputy President.

PN86

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Then it's my respectful suggestion that you have a good think about that issue. Obviously, a Full Bench - we're not in a position to make any decisions now, but you should perhaps take on board the issue of whether it's appropriate to make yet another Award for such a small group of employees. All right?

PN87

MR NGUYEN: Deputy President.

PN88

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That's all from you, is it?

PN89

MR NGUYEN: Unless there's anything further, I think that's all. We would just request that time, if it please the Commission, for us to exchange further drafts and come to as much agreement as we can on the text.

PN90

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: We can act on the basis that in six weeks, you'll have a final position about everything, yes?

PN91

MR NGUYEN: Yes, we will attempt to work that timeline as best we can, Deputy President.

PN92

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you very much. Sorry to ask you such direct questions, but otherwise we'll be beating about the bush forever, won't we? Anyone else from the union side want to say anything?

PN93

MS DABARERA: Deputy President, I'm appearing for United Voice and the HSU. We have identified an issue in relation to coverage of this award.

PN94

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: That's the ambulance issue, is it?

PN95

MS DABARERA: That's correct, Deputy President.

PN96

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: What do you propose? Essentially an exclusion of ambulance employees, is that right?

PN97

MS DABARERA: That's correct, Deputy President. In clause 4.2 there are currently three awards that are excluded and we would propose that the Ambulance and Patient Transport Industry Award be excluded as well.

PN98

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: You'd have some helicopters being treated as an ambulance, is that right?

PN99

MS DABARERA: Currently there are air ambulance services, so they would contain paramedics on those services and those paramedics would have qualifications in the medical side of things, but they would also have qualifications related to either aero medical retrieval or the HSU also has members who would have qualifications in aviation.

PN100

In the classifications clause of the proposed Helicopter Award, when it goes through the task or the skills of the air crew person, a lot of those overlap with what paramedics or ambulance attendants would be doing as well, especially in relation to emergency medical. But they may also may have the other skills such as repelling, winching and so on.

PN101

We're concerned that in an environment where ambulance services are increasingly - either they're already privatised, or there are moves towards privatisation and contracting out of these services, we're concerned that there could be situations where employers see the award and believe that the proposed Helicopter Award would cover these paramedics and ambulance attendants, rather than the Ambulance Award.

PN102

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thanks Ms Dabarera. No, I follow, thank you.

PN103

MS DABARERA: Thank you.

PN104

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Does the AMWU want to say anything about that?

PN105

MR NGUYEN: We're happy to enter into further discussions with United Voice and HSU about the specific issues of concern that they have. We don't believe that there is any possible overlap in the coverage. There's a clause that exists in every modern award which provides for where there is possible coverage, dual coverage of two awards. The application of the test is that the most appropriate classification will be applied in those circumstances.

PN106

In respect to the classifications which they've identified in their award, we believe that in the circumstances they've described, those classifications would be the most appropriate classifications for those employees and there wouldn't be any overlap in coverage.

PN107

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. Right, Babcock.

PN108

MR ROGERS: Yes, thank you Deputy President. Certainly, the position as outlined by Mr Nguyen was a fair summary in terms of the discussions that occurred yesterday. Both parties agreed that we would exchange by the end of the month our positions in relation to those points that we were highlighting, that we were having to consider and go back to each other about. Certainly, we believe the time frame for the six weeks is very achievable in terms of the position as to what we would present to you in relation to the award.

PN109

The point you raised about the Cabin Crew Award, I will need to get some instructions on. I just don't - I take that on notice.

PN110

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Well, just to repeat, the Air Pilot's Award covers helicopter crew as well as other pilots. The Cabin Crew Award apparently only covers planes, not helicopters. But it may be an appropriate vehicle, given the need to - or in a multiplicity of awards for small groups, I mean what would be next?

PN111

MR ROGERS: Yes, no I understand. Nothing further, thank you.

PN112

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: All right, thank you for that. Is there anything that anybody wants to raise? I suppose Babcock speaks for employers generally, doesn't it, in a sense?

PN113

MR ROGERS: We're only representing Babcock. I know some other employers were interested at one point, but they - just their level of interest seems to have dissipated.

PN114

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Fair enough. Thanks for that. Nothing else from anybody? That's it?

PN115

MS DABARERA: No Deputy President.

PN116

MR NGUYEN: No, Deputy President.

PN117

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: The next step will probably be a listing before the Full Bench in six weeks, yes?

PN118

MR NGUYEN: If it please the Commission.

PN119

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thanks very much for attending. Thank you very much for all your hard work and good luck with your final discussions. Thank you very much.

PN120

MR NGUYEN: Thank you.

PN121

MR ROGERS: Thank you.

PN122

THE DEPUTY PRESIDENT: We're adjourned.

ADJOURNED INDEFINITELY [2.27 PM]