PN1

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I'll take the appearances. Mr Ward and Ms Simmons, you appear for ABI and the NSW Business chamber?

PN2

MR N. WARD: We do, your Honour, yes.

PN3

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Harding, you appear for the AD Legal Centre and the UWU, and together with Mr Kemppi, for the ACTU, have I got that right?

PN4

MR M. HARDING: With the addition of the HSU.

PN5

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Of the HSU, thank you. Ms Walsh, you appear for Our Voice Australia?

PN6

MS M. WALSH: That's correct, your Honour.

PN7

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Christodoulou, you're appearing for Greenacres?

PN8

MR C. CHRISTODOULOU: Yes, your Honour.

PN9

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Ms Langford for National Disability Services?

PN10

MS K. LANGFORD: I do, your Honour.

PN11

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: And Ms Gruschka, for the Department of Social Services.

PN12

MR E. GRUSCHKA: I do.

PN13

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Is that all the appearances? All right. What I think I'll do before we go any further, is to mark, subject to anything anybody wishes to raise, mark some documents as exhibits. So the statement of agreed facts dated 4 August 2022, will be marked exhibit A.

EXHIBIT #A STATEMENT OF AGREED FACTS DATED 04/08/2022

PN14

The witness statement, and I should say, I'll provide the parties with a copy of the list of exhibits as we go, day by day.

PN15

MR WARD: Yes, thanks.

PN16

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The witness statement of Kirsten Wilson, re the jurisdictional objections, dated 13 May 2022, will be marked exhibit B.

EXHIBIT #B WITNESS STATEMENT OF KIRSTEN WILSON RE JURISDICTIONAL OBJECTIONS, DATED 13/05/2022

PN17

The witness statement of Kate Last(?), dated 20 May 2022, will be marked exhibit C.

EXHIBIT #C WITNESS STATEMENT OF KATE LAST DATED 20/05/2022

PN18

The witness statement of Rodney Davis, dated 21 July 2022, will be marked exhibit D.

EXHIBIT #D WITNESS STATEMENT OF RODNEY DAVIS DATED 21/07/2022

PN19

The witness statement of Brendan Ford dated 22 July 2022, will be marked exhibit E.

EXHIBIT #E WITNESS STATEMENT OF BRENDAN FORD DATED 22/07/2022

PN20

The witness statement of Ron McCallum dated 21 July 2022, will be marked as exhibit F.

EXHIBIT #F WITNESS STATEMENT OF RON McCALLUM DATED 21/07/2022

PN21

The witness statement of Ms Kemppi dated 4 August 2022, will be marked as exhibit G.

EXHIBIT #G WITNESS STATEMENT OF MS KEMPPI DATED 04/08/2022

PN22

And what I propose to do with respect to the 14 witness statement filed by Our Voice Australia, I propose to mark those as a bundle, as exhibit H.

EXHIBIT #H BUNDLE OF 14 WITNESS STATEMENTS FILED BY OUR VOICE AUSTRALIA

PN23

Perhaps the parties might consider at some state whether they're happy for the trial report, I'll just give it that appellation for the time-being, needs to be marked as an exhibit at some stage, as well. Mr Ward, do you want to say something before we begin?

PN24

MR WARD: Yes, I think it would be prudent to do that. It's obviously seminal to the proceedings. If the Commission was to do that now it might make it easier for us to refer to it.

PN25

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Is there any objection to us taking that course? All right, what I'll call, the trial report, I'll give it the full name of the document, will be marked as exhibit I.

EXHIBIT #I TRIAL REPORT

PN26

Does any party wish to raise anything before we turn to the first witness?

PN27

MR WARD: If I can, your Honour. I think there's two matters, mostly of housekeeping. One concerns the confidentiality of the order issued in relation to various named employees in two statements. One is Mr Christodoulou's statement, and the other one is Ms Dauncey's statement. I should deal with that before we proceed.

PN28

But can I also indicate formally for the record that we will not be relying on the statement of Alan Wilke. I think we had informed the Fair Work Commission of that.

PN29

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes.

PN30

MR WARD: But just for the record, I just confirm that now.

PN31

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Thank you.

PN32

MR WARD: In relation to the confidentiality issue, I understand there's been some communication with the presiding member's chambers and Ms Kemppi from the ACTU. It concerns a protocol to adopt, to remove the actual employee names that are referenced in the statement of Mr Christodoulou in what is described as attachment C, and employee names that are referenced by Ms Dauncey in what is describe as attachment G.

PN33

I think a draft order has been provided to you but if it hasn't, I can hand the version up now, and I'm also able to hand up now what is practically the protocol that would be used, and in simple terms by way of example, the first employee that is referenced in Mr Christodoulou's statement will now be described as Greenacres employee 1, and so forth. Does the Bench with to deal with that now before - - -

PN34

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Is there any opposition, Mr Harding or anyone else, to making those confidentiality orders?

PN35

MR HARDING: No, your Honour.

PN36

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, and do you agree with the protocol? Might those be provided to us, Mr Ward?

PN37

MR WARD: Thank you, yes.

PN38

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: That's all right. I think you should proceed on the basis that we'll issue the, what's proposed as a formal order, when we adjourn later today.

PN39

MR HARDING: Thank you, your Honour.

PN40

MR WARD: If the Commission pleases. On that basis, I have nothing further in the way of housekeeping and I call

PN41

Mr Chris Christodoulou.

PN42

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Christodoulou.

PN43

THE ASSOCIATE: Can you please state your full name and address?

PN44

MR CHRISTODOULOU: Chris Christodoulou, (address supplied).

<CHRIS CHRISTODOULOU, AFFIRMED�� [10.10 AM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR WARD�� [10.10 AM]

***�� CHRIS CHRISTODOULOU�� XN MR WARD

PN45

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Please be seated, Mr Christodoulou.

PN46

MR WARD: Mr Christodoulou, could I ask you to restate your full name and address for the record, please?‑‑‑Chris Christodoulou, (address supplied).

PN47

You have prepared a statement for these proceedings?‑‑‑I did.

PN48

Do you have a copy of that statement with you?‑‑‑Yes.

PN49

It's my understanding that that statement is of some 44 paragraphs, and four annexures described as attachments A, B, C and D, is that correct?‑‑‑Yes.

PN50

I understand you wish to make a correction to your statement, is that right?‑‑‑Yes, if I could.

PN51

Your Honour, I've spoken to my friend about this, and I might just lead this issue as it might be just efficient. Mr Christodoulou, am I correct in saying that the correction is in paragraph 19?‑‑‑Yes.

PN52

It's my understanding that paragraph 19 should end in a full stop, about five lines down, after the words in parenthesis, which says, 'For example, those currently not doing any meaningful work'?‑‑‑That's right.

PN53

Bracket, full stop. And ten you propose that we delete the remaining words?‑‑‑Yes.

PN54

Is that the correction you wish to make?‑‑‑Yes.

PN55

Subject to that correction, is this statement true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief?‑‑‑Yes.

PN56

I tender that, your Honour.

PN57

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The witness statement of Chris Christodoulou, filed on 8 July 2022 will be marked

***�� CHRIS CHRISTODOULOU�� XN MR WARD

PN58

exhibit J.

EXHIBIT #J WITNESS STATEMENT OF CHRIS CHRISTODOULOU DATED 08/07/2022

PN59

MR WARD: If the Commission pleases.

PN60

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Just before you start, Mr Harding, does any other advocate wish to ask any questions of

PN61

Mr Christodoulou? No. All right, Mr Harding?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HARDING�� [10.12 AM]

PN62

MR HARDING: Thank you, your Honour. Mr Christodoulou, you've attached your previous statement from 2018, as attachment A to your statement. Have you got that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN63

Can I direct your attention to paragraph 6?‑‑‑Yes.

PN64

You say there � you give some numbers?‑‑‑Yes.

PN65

Do you want to revise those numbers?‑‑‑We no longer have six volunteers, probably one. And the 180 figure probably is down to around 170. We would have some more support staff, Mr Harding, but I can't � it would be higher than 18, given that we now have the NDIS and we're acting on ratios, but I can't give you the exact number.

PN66

But in terms of the numbers of supported employees, you say 240?‑‑‑There's probably around that. It could be slightly lower, by 10. I didn't go back to check those figures.

PN67

Can I just hand you a document, please? This is the range of work Greenacres does. I'm sorry, your Honour, I've only got two there, to make one available, I'm sorry, Commissioner. I didn't mean to exclude you. This is the range of work at Greenacres, isn't it?‑‑‑We've now got a caf�, Mr Harding.

PN68

Yes, well that's Facility Services, isn't it? You run your own staff caf�, or handle long term projects?‑‑‑Yes, you are correct.

***�� CHRIS CHRISTODOULOU�� XXN MR HARDING

PN69

So you say, 'packing, 240', and then there's a whole bunch of other things?‑‑‑Well, the 240 is inclusive of those other things.

PN70

Okay, but you'd agree, would you not, that this is a good example of the range of work that Greenacres performs for commercial clients?‑‑‑Yes, although it's interesting. I just want to just � I'll just have a bit more of a read of this, Mr Harding. It doesn't seem to emphasise packaging, which is probably the biggest portion of our work, interestingly enough.

PN71

I'll give you another thing to have a look at?‑‑‑Yes.

PN72

I'm short again, your Honour, in terms of the numbers.

PN73

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I think we're all out of practice,

PN74

Mr Harding.

PN75

MR HARDING: Yes. Now this is the list of packaging, isn't it?‑‑‑Yes, it'll be a number of those tasks, yes. There'll be � packaging would fall within there.

PN76

This is what you advertise to the world, isn't it?‑‑‑If that's what's on the website, that's right.

PN77

It's your website?‑‑‑Yes.

PN78

And this gives you a vast array of different kinds of things that you do for commercial clients?‑‑‑Not all at one time.

PN79

No, didn't ask you that question. This is the range of things you do for commercial clients?‑‑‑That we can offer commercial clients.

PN80

Thank you. For that purpose it's the case, isn't it, that the commercial client will contact you and say, okay, we want you to do a job, and if you can do it and meet their need the you'll do it, and it accords with what you have available to produce that good or service?‑‑‑In actual fact, we go chasing this work, Mr Harding, and we don't always do the work. In fact, we're knocking back work now because the amounts of money that commercial clients want to pay are not sustainable.

***�� CHRIS CHRISTODOULOU�� XXN MR HARDING

PN81

That's a commercial question, isn't it?‑‑‑Mm-hm.

PN82

That's the nature of the market, isn't it?‑‑‑That is the market, yes.

PN83

Which you operate in. Which you operate it?‑‑‑Yes.

PN84

In 2018, Mr Christodoulou, you were using the Greenacres wages tool for the supported employees you employ, weren't you?‑‑‑Yes.

PN85

You still are, aren't you?‑‑‑Yes.

PN86

Have you read the decision of this Full Bench from 2019?‑‑‑Some time ago, I did, yes.

PN87

Have you read what the Full Bench said about the Greenacres tool in 2019?‑‑‑Yes.

PN88

And you're still using it?‑‑‑Yes.

PN89

Mr Christodoulou, you say in paragraph 6, or if I can take you back to your first statement � perhaps, your Honour, could I tender those documents that I've just handed up?

PN90

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Is there any objection?

PN91

MR WARD: No, your Honour.

PN92

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: So, are these from the website, the Greenacres website, Mr Harding?

PN93

MR HARDING: They are.

PN94

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I'll mark them together, so extracts from Greenacres' website will be marked exhibit K.

EXHIBIT #K EXTRACTS FROM GREENACRES' WEBSITE

***�� CHRIS CHRISTODOULOU�� XXN MR HARDING

PN95

MR HARDING: Thank you, your Honour. Mr Christodoulou, at paragraph 5 you refer to the trial, the ARTD, if I can refer to it in that way, trial?‑‑‑Yes.

PN96

Then you say in paragraph 6 that Greenacres did not participate in that trial, do you see that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN97

Then in paragraph 7, because you say Greenacres didn't participate, you're not in a position to comment on the conduct of the trial and the experiences of those involved?‑‑‑Yes.

PN98

But you sat on the steering committee, didn't you?‑‑‑Yes.

PN99

It's the case, isn't it, that you signed the confidentiality agreement that the Commonwealth asked for, didn't you?‑‑‑Yes.

PN100

In which case, you had available right from the get-go, the design of the trial?‑‑‑I'm not sure, so much, the design of the trial. We had information about the trial.

PN101

You had information about the trial? What does that mean?‑‑‑Well, we didn't design the trial at the steering committee. We were informed about what was being proposed.

PN102

Yes, and you knew because you were told, that the trial wouldn't be - - -

PN103

MR WARD: I object to this. There's a real important issue here and that is, Mr Christodoulou has just acknowledged he signed a confidentiality agreement and it would be improper for him to be questioned on matters that are in breach of that confidentiality agreement. Perhaps that confidentiality agreement needs to be brought forward to understand whether or not he's putting himself in any jeopardy.

PN104

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes. Mr Harding?

PN105

MR HARDING: You signed the confidentiality agreement, yes?‑‑‑Yes.

PN106

Do you remember what it covered?‑‑‑From memory, I can't,

***�� CHRIS CHRISTODOULOU�� XXN MR HARDING

PN107

Mr Harding.

PN108

So when you say you're not in a position to comment on the conduct of the trial and the experience of those involved, is that because you signed the confidentiality agreement?‑‑‑No, because I wasn't involved in the trial. I didn't speak to anybody that was involved in the trial.

PN109

In relation to the steering committee, you don't know what you signed, do you? You can't recall what you're obliged to keep secret, is that your evidence?‑‑‑I can recall that we weren't supposed to talk about anything that happened within the steering committee, nor were we to be involved in any aspect of the trial.

PN110

Including its design?‑‑‑Well, I can't recall that we were involved in the design of the trial.

PN111

What did the steering committee do then?‑‑‑I, again,

PN112

Mr Harding, was given information about how the trial might proceed. That's as much as I can recall, to be honest. It was some time ago.

PN113

So I'm not going to ask you specific questions around what you were told, but is the process that you were informed how the trial would be conducted?‑‑‑From recollection we were being told about how those organising the trial might gather organisations to be involved in the trial, the number of organisations, types of work they might do, et cetera, the timeframes.

PN114

The design? Who directed the design?‑‑‑Well, I can't remember that the committee directed the design.

PN115

Who did then?‑‑‑I don't know.

PN116

So, notwithstanding that you participated as a member of the steering committee, you're now offering evidence about how the grades would be applied that were contained in the decision of 2019?‑‑‑I'm giving you my perspective on how those grades might be applied if I was applying them at Greenacres.

PN117

So this is how it's to be read, is it? Your evidence about how it would apply at Greenacres?‑‑‑Yes.

***�� CHRIS CHRISTODOULOU�� XXN MR HARDING

PN118

Only?‑‑‑Only.

PN119

You don't speak, in any sense, for ADEs generally, do you?‑‑‑No.

PN120

You give some evidence about some correspondence you received from ABI - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

PN121

And you've exhibited that correspondence in your statement?‑‑‑Yes.

PN122

Were you involved in the design of the alternative structure that ABI asked you to have a look at?‑‑‑Yes, I was.

PN123

So the correspondence didn't come as a surprise to you then?‑‑‑No.

PN124

Were you the one who designed the subgrades of A1, A2, B1 and B2?‑‑‑No, not myself, Mr Harding. There was some discussions with a range of other ADEs who have been involved in these proceedings, including some informal discussions by NDS.

PN125

So through NDS, these were devised and proposed?‑‑‑No, NDS wasn't officially involved in the endorsement of those particular four definitions. They evolved out of discussions.

PN126

With who?‑‑‑Out of the groups of ADEs that I've referred to that were involved in the proceedings, and some other members of NDS, and ultimately ABL thought based on those discussions and information, that this might be an alternative to put forward.

PN127

So Greenacres was one, obviously, as part of its group; Endeavour was another?‑‑‑Yes.

PN128

Who else?‑‑‑And the Flagstaff Group. There's the organisation that Mr Dauncey, I think, is involved with. There was an organisation in South Australia, and at least two others but I can't remember.

PN129

All the large ADEs, is that right?‑‑‑I would - - -

***�� CHRIS CHRISTODOULOU�� XXN MR HARDING

PN130

Is that an accurate way of characterising it?‑‑‑I wouldn't regard Greenacres as a large ADE, necessarily.

PN131

So then if I can ask you to turn please to the guidance note which I think you've attached to your statement, and I'm not sure what it is � (b), I think, and as I understand it, you've got some correspondence and a guidance note. Did you devise the guidance note?‑‑‑No, not at all.

PN132

Then there's an explanation of the Full Bench's decision in December about the classifications?‑‑‑Yes.

PN133

Then you've got guidelines for the classification of employees, which is Appendix B, if you can turn to that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN134

I'm just going to direct your attention to question 2.

PN135

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: So, Mr Harding, where are we now?

PN136

MR HARDING: It's several pages, and it's actually the last two pages, or the last - penultimate page of Annexure B to Mr Christodoulou's statement, Attachment B. It's headed, 'Appendix B, Guidelines of the Classification of Employees', if that assists.

PN137

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, I'm at Appendix B, but what part of Appendix B?

PN138

MR HARDING: It's the second-last page. I've - - -

PN139

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Appendix B to attachment B?

PN140

MR HARDING: Yes, that's right, Appendix B to attachment B.

PN141

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, all right, thank you. Yes. Thank you.

PN142

MR HARDING: Mr Christodoulou, these were the instructions you were given as to how to go about the classification exercise, is that right?‑‑‑Yes.

***�� CHRIS CHRISTODOULOU�� XXN MR HARDING

PN143

Question 2 asks you about deconstruction of what would be likely to be a whole job in open employment, do you see that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN144

And, 'consisting of a level of duties and supervision tailored or adjusted for the circumstances of the employee's disability', yes?‑‑‑Yes.

PN145

And the way you understood, or if I can put it to you this way, do you see that there's an, 'if yes', and that tells you to do something - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

PN146

And then there's an 'if no', that tells you to do something?‑‑‑Yes.

PN147

So you understood that to mean, didn't you, that if you believed you had a tailored or adjusted job, then you could use grade A or B?‑‑‑Yes.

PN148

Yes?‑‑‑Yes.

PN149

That's where you went to classify those employees?‑‑‑If they fell into question 2, yes.

PN150

If you didn't have a tailored or adjusted job, you weren't to use grade A and B?‑‑‑Yes.

PN151

You've given some evidence about the process that you adopted, you and Mr Williams, I believe, is that right, in your statement, about how you went and did that exercise, and that is from paragraph 14, really � well, actually, 12 I think. You say you selected a group of 10 employees as your sample?‑‑‑Yes.

PN152

Then you went through the steps there?‑‑‑Yes.

PN153

The outcomes of that exercise are in attachment C to your statement, is that the way to look at that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN154

We agreed to refer to these individuals as Greenacres' employees, 1 through to 10?‑‑‑Yes.

PN155

So if we look at Greenacres employee 1, for the moment, in attachment C?‑‑‑Yes.

***�� CHRIS CHRISTODOULOU�� XXN MR HARDING

PN156

You don't offer any evidence, at all, do you, of the work? This is just a conclusion, isn't it?‑‑‑It's based on our assessment of that employee, having regard to the definitions.

PN157

So it's your evidence of yours and Mr Williams' assessment?‑‑‑Yes.

PN158

No one else?‑‑‑No.

PN159

And you say to the Full Bench, accept my assessment as the proper classification of these employees' work?‑‑‑Yes.

PN160

You agree, don't you, Mr Christodoulou, you've offered no evidence whatsoever about how such work relates to some jobs in open employment?‑‑‑Yes, that's right.

PN161

This is just, you say, your opinion and Mr Williams' opinion of work in your ADE, that's it?‑‑‑That's it.

PN162

Then you refer, let's say, Greenacres employees 1 in attachment C - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

PN163

'He requires constant monitoring and regular intervention to stay on task as he frequently walks or runs away from his work area.' What's the relevance of that to wages?‑‑‑The only relevance to that was in terms of the ABL grade A1. I thought I'd put in the last piece because in that particular classification it talked about requiring further intervention to stay on task, from memory.

PN164

So this is evidence about ABL's proposal?‑‑‑No. You'll see there's two columns. One is the Fair Work Commission trial structure, and one is the ABL proposal, and in the Fair Work Commission proposed structure the person would fall into A; in the ABL structure the person would fall in A1.

PN165

The reality is, isn't it, Mr Christodoulou, that for an employee like that, that is an activity that is now covered by the National Disability Insurance Scheme, isn't it?‑‑‑Yes.

PN166

If we can go to Greenacres 2 - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

PN167

'However, can do some grade B work, but is limited due to the physical capabilities, requires constant monitoring to replenish work'?‑‑‑Yes.

***�� CHRIS CHRISTODOULOU�� XXN MR HARDING

PN168

In relation to constant monitoring, again that is an activity that is covered by the National Disability Insurance Scheme?‑‑‑I'm not sure that the National Disability Insurance Scheme?‑‑‑I'm not sure that the National Disability Insurance Scheme uses the word or has any regard to, 'constant monitoring.'

PN169

Well - - -?‑‑‑That's a terminology that comes out of the grades that the Commission has put forward.

PN170

Yes, I understand it's a terminology that's used, but the reality is, if an individual employee requires assistance in your ADE of that kind - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

PN171

That could form part of a plan that is covered by the National Disability Insurance Scheme?‑‑‑Yes, absolutely. All of our supported employees require - - -

PN172

Yes?‑‑‑Yes.

PN173

In fact, you won't take a supported employee on if they don't have a plan?‑‑‑That's right.

PN174

In relation to that plan, or a plan, the way it works is that, is it not, Mr Christodoulou, that if a worker wishes to work at your ADE and requires support with performing the work that Greenacres requires them to perform, that can form a discussion with the NDIA, the National Disability Insurance Agency, and be included in a plan?‑‑‑No, the discussions with the employee and/or the guardian or carer - - -

PN175

Yes?‑‑‑And they are the ones that enter into the service agreement with us, not the NDIA.

PN176

Okay, and so is it the case then, there's a service agreement which identifies the kind of supports that that worker needs?‑‑‑Yes.

***�� CHRIS CHRISTODOULOU�� XXN MR HARDING

PN177

Then the worker goes to the NDIA and says, I need these supports, and that forms a discussion with the NDIA for the purposes of the plan?‑‑‑Yes, that � or it could be the reverse, they've got their plan from the NDIA, and the NDIA may have included in that plan, 20 hours of supported employment, and that that individual go shopping around to different employers to see whether they can offer those supports in employment. And they might come to us and say, look, we've got 20 hours of employment support, do you have any work available or can you provide us with employment.

PN178

Yes. That's right, and if they've got 20 hours' support in their plan, that's the support that you bill and you employ on that basis, them you bill the NDIA for those supports?‑‑‑That's exactly right.

PN179

It's a game changer, isn't it, the NDIA, as far as supports are concerned?‑‑‑When you say 'it', to the individual?

PN180

Yes?‑‑‑Yes.

PN181

And now you're competing for workers, as well as competing for work?‑‑‑Well, in our case we're not competing for workers, because in fact our work is contracting. We've had a very slow period of being able to get commercial work.

PN182

Okay, let's leave that aside. So that pertains to the work that you can get into your ADE?‑‑‑Yes.

PN183

But you've just described a situation in which, if you've got a worker who has 20 hours of support, they can shop around?‑‑‑Yes.

PN184

And if you're ADE is prepared to take them on with 20 hours of support, and they wish to go there, they go there?‑‑‑Yes.

PN185

Or they go to another ADE or somewhere else, an open employment, and they get their 20 hours of support, they go there, it's their choice?‑‑‑Yes.

PN186

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Christodoulou, why is the work contracting?‑‑‑Since COVID, in particular, your Honour, we just haven't had as much work coming in, I think predominantly because some of the work we got was from overseas. There'd be, you know, imports coming in, and they'd want work deconstructed and whatever, and repackaged, and a lot of that work hasn't been coming in, and beyond that, the type of work that we now do, your Honour, which effectively is hand packaging, I think is being done cheaper by other organisations through technology and all that.

PN187

Other none ADE organisations?‑‑‑Yes. Yes.

PN188

Thank you.

***�� CHRIS CHRISTODOULOU�� XXN MR HARDING

PN189

MR HARDING: If I can go back to paragraph 14 of your first statement - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

PN190

And you went through, you say, this exercise in relation to each of the tenure for the 10 workers, and you say you identified whether or not the employee meets the impairment criteria. What did you have in mind?‑‑‑Just, were they on the disability support pension.

PN191

That's it?‑‑‑Yes.

PN192

That's the tick? If they're on the pension then they were in?‑‑‑Well, if they're eligible � in our case, eligibility � all of our employees are on the disability support pension, so I presume by that that they are eligible. Otherwise they wouldn't be on the disability support pension.

PN193

So you took the view that if they were eligible for the pension then they were in the category of the worker that you could look at?‑‑‑Yes.

PN194

It's the case, isn't it, that in the end, the work you want a worker in your organisation to do, is the work that you have available for them to do?‑‑‑Well, our organisation's set up � one of our purposes is to try to provide employment to people with disabilities.

PN195

I understand that?‑‑‑And so, yes, if work was available, and we would employ a person with a disability that was eligible, and if we thought they had some capacity to do the work that is available.

PN196

So maybe the way the order of events is, if you've got work available that you need to be done in order to satisfy your obligations to your customers, and you've got workers, then if the worker can do the work you need done, you'll employ them to do that work?‑‑‑Yes.

PN197

That's quite different, isn't it, from the kind of tailored or adjusted position that the Commission had in mind?‑‑‑No, because when you say, if we've got work available that can be done, we need to make sure that they have the capability of doing the work - - -

PN198

Yes?‑‑‑And to the extent that we have tailorised out workplace to meet some of those capabilities.

***�� CHRIS CHRISTODOULOU�� XXN MR HARDING

PN199

But you're not going to employ someone to perform work that you don't need?‑‑‑Well, unfortunately in the past, we probably have. That's why we're probably not(sic) in the financial position that we are. We've tried to keep people in employment, tried to put people on, but I suspect that's now causing us a bit of grief.

PN200

So you're not going to be doing that in the future, is that your evidence?‑‑‑Yes.

PN201

In the future, this is just a commercial operation that employs people to do work that you need done?‑‑‑No, the organisation exists for people with disabilities, and we will try to find more work and we will try to find the work of a nature that people with disabilities are capable of, but there's a balance that we'll need to find.

PN202

The balance tips in favour of getting the job done that you can sell?‑‑‑In the past, we've actually subsidised the work, so in the past we have made losses at our enterprises but the organisation has had the capacity to subsidise those losses - - -

PN203

Yes?‑‑‑Merely because our purpose is to employ people with disabilities.

PN204

Regardless of subsidy, the position is this, isn't it,

PN205

Mr Christodoulou, that you're a commercial operation that sells into a market?‑‑‑Well, yes, of course.

PN206

Yes?‑‑‑But we have to try to run sustainably.

PN207

That's right, and sustainability means that you need to turn a buck from the work that your workers produce, and that you can sell?‑‑‑Yes, we're � well, we don't sell the work, in this sense, that with the packaging work, Mr Harding, we get paid a price to, say, package, say, cosmetics.

PN208

Yes?‑‑‑So we don't manufacture the cosmetics and sell them as our own brand.

PN209

No?‑‑‑Some ADEs do that, but we don't.

PN210

You don't. So, you get the products, the job is, the contractual job is to assemble it in a particular way, is that right?‑‑‑Yes.

***�� CHRIS CHRISTODOULOU�� XXN MR HARDING

PN211

You've devised a process by which that can occur?‑‑‑Commensurate with the capabilities of the people.

PN212

Of your workforce?‑‑‑Yes.

PN213

Then it results in an end outcome, which is the assembled product - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

PN214

That you provide to your customer?‑‑‑Yes.

PN215

And you get paid?‑‑‑Yes.

PN216

Turning over to paragraph 42 of your statement, you've given some evidence about the financial position of Greenacres there, do you see that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN217

But you haven't provided the Commission with any evidence of those numbers, have you, other than your - - -?‑‑‑Other than my own evidence.

PN218

Can I hand you a document, please?‑‑‑Yes.

PN219

Do you want to have a look at that for a moment?‑‑‑Yes.

PN220

Do you know what that is?‑‑‑That's our financial accounts for '21.

PN221

Thank you, and can I take you please to page 6 of those accounts. Have you got that?‑‑‑I'm just turning,

PN222

Mr Harding.

PN223

Yes?‑‑‑Yes.

PN224

This says that your revenue for 2020 was 20 million?‑‑‑Yes.

PN225

Your revenue for 2021 was 21 million; 25 million?‑‑‑Yes.

PN226

You made in 2020, one and a half million bucks in profit?‑‑‑Yes.

***�� CHRIS CHRISTODOULOU�� XXN MR HARDING

PN227

And 3 million dollars in profit in 2021?‑‑‑Yes.

PN228

The next page, page 7 - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

PN229

Represents the equity that Greenacres has, and you've got something like 23 million dollars in equity in 2020, and 26 million dollars in equity in 2021?‑‑‑Yes.

PN230

If I can stay with page 6, you'll see that there's a line item that says, 'Employee benefits expense', and there's a note 3, do you see that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN231

If you can flip over please, to page 14?‑‑‑Yes.

PN232

You'll see about half way down there's a note that says, 'Note 3 expenses', do you see that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN233

Let's go to the 2020 column, please?‑‑‑Yes.

PN234

You've got, 'Wages staff, 13 million dollars in 2020'?‑‑‑Yes.

PN235

Now that's - - -?‑‑‑Hold on. Wages staff � are you talking about 2020?

PN236

Yes?‑‑‑Yes.

PN237

That is the wages of Greenacres' employees who don't have disabilities?‑‑‑Yes.

PN238

The supported employees, you've got a figure of $2,000,957?‑‑‑Yes.

PN239

That's your employees?‑‑‑Yes.

PN240

Supported employees?‑‑‑(No audible reply)

PN241

Yes?‑‑‑Yes.

PN242

The people who are subject to this proceeding?‑‑‑Yes.

***�� CHRIS CHRISTODOULOU�� XXN MR HARDING

PN243

Out of a total in 2020 of 15 million dollars in expense?‑‑‑Yes.

PN244

So your supported employees are a fraction of your costs, aren't they?‑‑‑I'm not sure if you'd say it's a fraction, bearing in mind that the wages staff that we engage, the bulk of those wages staff are not employed in the ADE, they're actually employed in our other services that we have at Greenacres.

PN245

So what?‑‑‑Hm?

PN246

That's a question?‑‑‑Yes.

PN247

What's the answer? So what?‑‑‑What's the question?

PN248

So what that they're employed in other parts of Greenacres?‑‑‑That's not a question.

PN249

Okay. If you move to 2021 - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

PN250

You've got wages of 14 million. You've increased your wages bill for wages staff, do you see that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN251

Does that indicate that you've increased the number of staff?‑‑‑I can't be sure, but there are ERO adjustments with all of our staff, which means disproportionately to other members of the workforce. Our wages were going up because of the CHADS Award, the (indistinct).

PN252

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Are you talking about the (indistinct) remuneration order?‑‑‑Yes.

PN253

MR HARDING: All right, and then you've got, 'Wages, JobKeeper staff', so I assume that means � yes, well, I'll put it to you. So the number that is 'Wages, staff', are those people who you didn't pay JobKeeper to, is that right?‑‑‑I can't be sure about that because that was the year that we did get JobKeeper and it did make a considerable difference to our profit and loss.

PN254

Yes, that's right, and then you've got, 'Wages, supported employees, 1,440,739; and then another 'Wages/JobKeeper supported' - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

***�� CHRIS CHRISTODOULOU�� XXN MR HARDING

PN255

What's the difference between those two, as far as supported employees are concerned?‑‑‑As I understand it, during JobKeeper our supported employees actually received the full monetary effect of JobKeeper. In other words, they were being more than what we would normally pay them, because JobKeeper was higher.

PN256

So you passed on the full effect of JobKeeper?‑‑‑Absolutely.

PN257

So what's the difference between wages, supported employees, and wages, JobKeeper employees?‑‑‑The only � that's - - -

PN258

Is that the subsidy, you say?‑‑‑The only thing I can think of there, and I do stand to be corrected, is there were some supported employees, for whatever reason, didn't want JobKeeper.

PN259

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Did JobKeeper affect their disability support pension?‑‑‑No, there was an arrangement with the Commonwealth that it wouldn't. Sorry, no, you're(sic) wrong. I take that back. I just need to think that through, I think. I think, yes, they didn't get their disability support pension and JobKeeper, but they were able to go back to their disability support pension as soon as JobKeeper had finished. That's my understanding.

PN260

Is that why some people might not choose - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

PN261

Yes?‑‑‑They were worried that they might lose their pension.

PN262

Thank you.

PN263

MR HARDING: So is your evidence that the 'JobKeeper supported', at that line item, is nearly two and a half million dollars that Greenacres was paid, that was not paid to employees?‑‑‑It would have been paid through us, to supported employees.

PN264

Let me just rephrase that. So, let's say, two and a half million dollars in JobKeeper paid to Greenacres, which you passed onto employees, you say - - -?‑‑‑Yes.

***�� CHRIS CHRISTODOULOU�� XXN MR HARDING

PN265

What's the one million and a half figure representing for supported employees?‑‑‑I can't be sure, Mr Harding. I'd have to go back and check with our financial officer.

PN266

But you would agree with me that the much larger proportion of your costs are in fact the wages of non disabled workers, rather than disabled workers?‑‑‑Yes.

PN267

Yes, thank you.

PN268

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Do you wish to tender the report?

PN269

MR HARDING: I do, yes.

PN270

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: If there's no objection, the Greenacres General Purpose Financial Report for Year Ended 30 June 2021 will be marked, exhibit K.

EXHIBIT #K GREENACRES GENERAL PURPOSE FINANCIAL REPORT FOR YEAR ENDED 30/06/2021

PN271

Yes, any re-examination, Mr Ward?

PN272

MR WARD: I'm not sure, sir. I was just caught off guard. I thought he was required for two and half hours, sorry.

PN273

MR HARDING: Yes, sorry, I was a bit more efficient than I had intended, very unusual.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WARD�� [10.56 AM]

PN274

MR WARD: Mr Christodoulou, can I just ask you a few questions if I can. Do you remember exhibit K? Do you have that in front of you?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN275

Mr Harding was asking you some questions and I think he put a proposition to you that commercial clients will contact you for those services. Do you recall that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN276

Yes, and you said something (indistinct), and you said, 'No, we'd go chasing work'?‑‑‑Yes.

***�� CHRIS CHRISTODOULOU�� RXN MR WARD

PN277

Can you just explain what you mean by that?‑‑‑There were some clients that we currently do work regularly for, off and on, they come to us, but in the main we need to go � we have a business development officer that actually cold calls and actually goes out and markets the fact that we can do packaging, assembly, the various types of work that are in exhibit K, in order to try to bring in more work to keep our people employed.

PN278

So the purpose is what you've just said, to keep the people employed?‑‑‑Yes.

PN279

Later on in your evidence you were being questioned on the NDIS and the NDIA, do you recall that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN280

Mr Harding used a phrase. He said, 'It's a game changer', do you recall him saying that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN281

And I think you might have agreed with him. Has the NDIS changed how you structure the work that the employees do?‑‑‑No, not really. We still do the same thing we normally do, which is, we'll look at the person, look at their capabilities and try to put them in a position after some training, where we think they're capable of doing the tasks that we want them to do.

PN282

When you agreed it was a game changer, what were you actually agreeing to?‑‑‑The - - -

PN283

MR HARDING: I object to the � no, I object to the question. That doesn't arise out of cross-examination.

PN284

Mr Christodoulou agreed with the question I put to him.

PN285

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I think in re-examination Mr Ward is entitled to ask him what he meant by that answer. Go ahead, Mr Ward.

PN286

MR HARDING: Thank you, your Honour. When you agreed it was a game changer, what were you actually agreeing to?‑‑‑The person with the disability has choice and control really, as to where they would like to work.

PN287

Thank you. Mr Harding then took you to paragraph 14. Can I just ask you to go to it just to refresh your memory. I think this is when you were doing your exercise to grade people?‑‑‑Yes.

***�� CHRIS CHRISTODOULOU�� RXN MR WARD

PN288

Do you see paragraph 14?‑‑‑Yes.

PN289

And Mr Harding was asking you questions about what he called the impairment criteria, do you recall that evidence?‑‑‑Yes.

PN290

Mr Harding then asked you a question as to whether or not you took the impairment criteria to be that somebody was eligible for the disability support pension, do you recall that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN291

Are all your supported employees in receipt of the disability support pension?‑‑‑Yes.

PN292

Is that what you understood to be the eligibility criteria for the Commission's proposal?‑‑‑Yes.

PN293

He later on asked you a question, and I'm paraphrasing and I'm going to do him an injustice and I apologise immediately, he said words to this effect, he said, 'You're a commercial operation that sells into a market'?‑‑‑Mm-hm.

PN294

I think you said, 'yes' to that. Can I just ask you this. Do you structure work in your organisation to optimise profit?‑‑‑No, we structure the work to be able to engage people with disabilities, according to their capability.

PN295

Mr Harding, before he went to there, made some suggestion that your understanding of deconstructing work was different to the Commission's intention. Am I right that your understanding is the answer you just gave?‑‑‑Yes.

PN296

Mr Harding then took you to your financial results, and I appreciate you're not the CFO - - -

PN297

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Before we go on, I think I made an error in marking that. The financial report should be exhibit L.

EXHIBIT #L GREENACRES GENERAL PURPOSE FINANCIAL REPORT FOR YEAR ENDED 30/06/2021

PN298

MR WARD: May I just have a moment, your Honour, sorry.

***�� CHRIS CHRISTODOULOU�� RXN MR WARD

PN299

Mr Harding took you to exhibit L, which is your General Purpose Financial Report for the Year Ended 30 June 2021?‑‑‑Yes.

PN300

Yes. Do I take it that that report consolidates all of Greenacres' activity?‑‑‑Yes.

PN301

Yes. Can I take you to your statement, because he was asking you questions about your profitability, and I think your viability?‑‑‑Yes.

PN302

And I think you were trying to answer something but I'm not sure you were given the chance, and you � I take it in paragraph 43 in your statement, you're not talking there about the organisation as a whole - - -

PN303

MR HARDING: Don't lead him.

PN304

MR WARD: Are you talking there about your organisation as a whole, or your ADE?‑‑‑There's two parts of it. In relation to 43(d), I'm talking about the whole of the organisation making a loss of well over a million, of which the majority of those would have been the ADE. In (a) it's about specifically the ADE. And in (c) it would be the whole of the organisation.

PN305

Nothing further, your Honour, thank you.

PN306

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right, thanks for your evidence, Mr Christodoulou, you're excused?‑‑‑Thank you, your Honour.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW�� [11.04 AM]

PN307

We've got a bit ahead of ourselves. Mr Ward, is the next witness available � - -

PN308

MR WARD: Will be available � could we maybe just have 10 minutes to sort them out, and - - -

PN309

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes.

PN310

MR WARD: I don't think they were � I've got to find them and � I don't think they were anticipating being required this soon.

***�� CHRIS CHRISTODOULOU�� RXN MR WARD

PN311

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I see a gentleman sitting out there in the foyer. I don't know that - - -

PN312

MR WARD: We're possibly doing even better than I thought, your Honour.

PN313

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Harding, do you intend to take the next witness to any documents?

PN314

MR HARDING: Yes, I do.

PN315

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: If you can contact my Associate. We'll take a short adjournment and if you ask my Associate, if you need any additional copies, we'll make sure that's done.

PN316

MR HARDING: Yes, I will.

PN317

MR WARD: Sorry, your Honour, can Mr Christodoulou now be excused as a witness?

PN318

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes.

PN319

MR WARD: He's going to continue his appearance when he gets here.

PN320

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes. Yes. All right, we'll adjourn now and we'll resume at 20 past 11.00.

PN321

MR WARD: Thank you.

SHORT ADJOURNMENT�� [11.05 AM]

RESUMED�� [11.32 AM]

PN322

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Ward?

PN323

MR WARD: Thank you, your Honour. I call Eric Teed. Please stand, Mr Teed, and we'll give you the oath or affirmation.

PN324

THE ASSOCIATE: Mr Teed, would please state your full name?

PN325

MR TEED: Eric Peter Teed, (address supplied).

PN326

THE ASSOCIATE: I'm going to read out the affirmation to you, and once I have finished, if you could indicate whether you agree by saying 'I do'.

<ERIC PETER TEED, AFFIRMED�� [11.33 AM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR WARD�� [11.33 AM]

PN327

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Please be seated, Mr Teed?‑‑‑Thank you.

PN328

Mr Ward?

PN329

MR WARD: Mr Teed, can I ask you to restate your full name and address for the record again?‑‑‑My name's Eric Peter Teed. Residential address is (address supplied).

PN330

You prepared a statement for these proceedings?‑‑‑I have.

PN331

Do you have a copy of that statement with you?‑‑‑I do.

PN332

And am I right that that statement is of some 30 paragraphs long and annexures two documents, one described as attachment A and one described as attachment B? Is that correct? And is that statement true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief?‑‑‑Yes, it is.

PN333

Thank you, Mr Teed. Mr Harding is going to ask you some questions.

PN334

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The witness statement of Eric Teed dated 8 July 2022 will be marked exhibit N.

EXHIBIT #M WITNESS STATEMENT OF ERIC TEED DATED 08/07/2022

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HARDING�� [11.34 AM]

PN335

MR HARDING: Thank you. Mr Teed, you're based in Queensland?‑‑‑Correct.

***�� ERIC PETER TEED�� XN MR WARD

***�� ERIC PETER TEED�� XXN MR HARDING

PN336

Is it the case that Endeavour operates some 30 ADEs across the country?‑‑‑That's right.

PN337

Keon Park being one of them?‑‑‑That's right.

PN338

It is also the case, is it not, that you have no day‑to‑day involvement with Keon Park?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN339

You've never met Ms Last?‑‑‑I have not.

PN340

You've never supervised her?‑‑‑I have not.

PN341

You haven't supervised any of the supported employees at Keon Park?‑‑‑Correct.

PN342

And you don't involve yourself in employment decisions at Keon Park, do you?‑‑‑Correct too.

PN343

That's why your statement has things like, 'I understand from employment records', as it says in paragraph 10, because you're relying on what others tell you about what's going on at Keon Park, aren't you?‑‑‑I am.

PN344

It's the case, isn't it, that the ADEs that Endeavour operates are commercial operations?‑‑‑We provide solutions to commercial enterprises.

PN345

I have absolutely no idea what that means?‑‑‑It means we engage in work on behalf of commercial customers.

PN346

That's right, and the way it works is that you enter into contracts with those customers. Is that right?‑‑‑That's right.

PN347

For work that they would like you to do?‑‑‑That's right.

PN348

And that you're able to perform?‑‑‑That's right.

PN349

With the workforce that you employ to perform it?‑‑‑Correct.

***�� ERIC PETER TEED�� XXN MR HARDING

PN350

Ultimately viability, commercial viability, is a critical condition for ADE operations that you as Endeavour run?‑‑‑Correct.

PN351

That's why you give the example in paragraph 10 of Maribyrnong?‑‑‑Yes.

PN352

In that case, as I understand your evidence, that service, which you took over - is that right?‑‑‑Yes.

PN353

Wasn't up to scratch in terms of the things that you mentioned?‑‑‑That's my understanding, from my reading of it, yes.

PN354

You had no involvement in that either?‑‑‑No.

PN355

But in that sense you talk about advanced packaging operations as being one of the things that Maribyrnong couldn't do. See that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN356

And what you mean by that is the technology wasn't up to being able to undertake those activities in a commercially viable way at Maribyrnong?‑‑‑That appears to be what they used as their rationale, yes.

PN357

You say 'they'. Who are you talking about?‑‑‑Those at Endeavour at the time who made that decision.

PN358

Who you don't know?‑‑‑I don't know.

PN359

No, you don't know. So you're just reading a piece of paper, are you?‑‑‑Yes.

PN360

If I can take you to paragraph 18 of your statement. You talk there in paragraph 18 of the Keon Park service and you say it is broadly the same as the work that would be required to undertake in many other packaging facilities. Do you see that?‑‑‑I do.

PN361

Do you have any personal knowledge of that work yourself?‑‑‑At Keon Park?

PN362

Yes?‑‑‑Yes.

***�� ERIC PETER TEED�� XXN MR HARDING

PN363

You've seen it?‑‑‑I've seen it.

PN364

So when you mean other packaging facilities, you're talking about packaging facilities anywhere where they're operated by an ADE or someone else?‑‑‑Correct.

PN365

You then say in (a), paragraph (a) of paragraph 18, you talk about your many production facilities outside the supported employment sector utilise automation to achieve operational productivity and cost efficiencies. Do you see that?‑‑‑I do.

PN366

You typically utilise little or no automation?‑‑‑Correct.

PN367

You don't give any examples, though, of what you're talking about by 'many production facilities', do you?‑‑‑Not in this statement, no.

PN368

No, and when you say little or no automation, you have the advantage of only being obliged to pay a fraction of the national minimum wage to these workers, don't you?‑‑‑I don't know that relates to automation.

PN369

Well, automation is often a labour‑saving device, isn't it?‑‑‑Correct.

PN370

And you might use automation to replace labour?‑‑‑Correct.

PN371

Because it costs less?‑‑‑It depends on why you're employing automation.

PN372

That's right, but in this case you've got the workers at a fraction of the national minimum wage to do this work?‑‑‑Well, we're providing employment to people in disabilities.

PN373

At a fraction of the national minimum wage?‑‑‑At the wage that's appropriate for those people in the site, based on ‑ ‑ ‑

PN374

At a fraction of the national minimum wage?‑‑‑Technically correct, yes.

PN375

Actually correct. That's right, isn't it?‑‑‑Yes, it is.

***�� ERIC PETER TEED�� XXN MR HARDING

PN376

You give some evidence in paragraph 18 - you only say you seek out or accept work from commercial customers that members of your workforce will be capable of performing to an acceptable standard. Yes? Do you see that?‑‑‑I do.

PN377

True of any employer?‑‑‑Yes.

PN378

You then try to contrast that, or you say that you contrast it, with other production facilities outside the supported employment sector, but you agree with me you offer no evidence whatsoever of any of those, do you?‑‑‑Sorry, I don't ‑ ‑ ‑

PN379

You offer no evidence of what this contrast is to be understood by reference to, do you?‑‑‑I don't understand the question.

PN380

Well, you just say, 'This contrasts with other production facilities'?‑‑‑Yes.

PN381

What are you talking about?‑‑‑Well, other production facilities are focused on production outcomes through automation rather than providing employment to people with disability.

PN382

But there's no evidence of that in your statement. You agree with that?‑‑‑I do.

PN383

Can I show you something, Mr Teed? I'm asking the witness to have a look at a document called Supported Employment, Keon Park, Victoria. The Bench has been provided with copies. Do you recognise this document?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN384

That's the Keon Park website, isn't it?‑‑‑Yes, it is.

PN385

For Endeavour Foundation?‑‑‑Yes.

PN386

It's the case, isn't it, Mr Teed, that this is advertising for supported workers to come work at Keon Park?‑‑‑It is.

PN387

So this is the entry point. If you want to work at Keon Park and you've got a disability, then you would apply through the website in this way. Is that your understanding?‑‑‑It's one of the ways, yes.

PN388

And if you could, the first paragraph tells the reader what kinds of work Keon Park provides. Yes?‑‑‑Yes.

***�� ERIC PETER TEED�� XXN MR HARDING

PN389

That's the range?‑‑‑Correct.

PN390

That's the commercial work that you're offering. Yes? And then it says to the reader, 'The type of work that you will do each day will be dependent on what jobs we have in production'?‑‑‑Yes.

PN391

'That could include anything from general food packaging to labelling, heat‑sealing or possibly even forklift driving'?‑‑‑Yes.

PN392

So really what you're saying there, isn't it, is that at the end of the day, for a worker, what you offer is the work that you have available?‑‑‑Yes, at that site.

PN393

Can I direct your attention to paragraph 28 of your statement? Can I tender that document, your Honour?

PN394

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes. So extract from the Endeavour Foundation website will be marked exhibit N.

EXHIBIT #N EXTRACT FROM ENDEAVOUR FOUNDATION WEBSITE

PN395

MR HARDING: In paragraph 28, about halfway down, there's the line that starts as 'Tasks, as this is not in the interests'. Do you see that? It's about nine lines down?‑‑‑Yes.

PN396

If you read along that line and you've got a sentence that commences 'However'. Do you see that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN397

What you're saying there, pretty clearly, isn't it, Mr Teed, is that sometimes workers have to do work just because that's what's commercially necessary?‑‑‑What I'm saying there is sometimes we have to do work that sometimes is available at the time.

PN398

And commercially necessary?‑‑‑All of our work is commercially necessary.

PN399

All of it. And isn't it the case that with your ADE, if you're a prospective employee and you want to be employed with Endeavour, you need to have an NDIS plan?‑‑‑It's part of the application process but isn't a job preventer.

***�� ERIC PETER TEED�� XXN MR HARDING

PN400

I don't understand what that means?‑‑‑It means anyone with a disability can apply to work at Endeavour Foundation.

PN401

Okay, and why is it part of the application process?‑‑‑Because it helps us understand how we can support that person in our workplace.

PN402

Yes, and if they come with a plan, you would expect that they would have in that plan funding to provide supports for them at work at Endeavour?‑‑‑Correct.

PN403

Mr Teed, is it the case that - I believe it was the case in 2018 that Endeavour used the Greenacres tool?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN404

Are they still using that tool?‑‑‑We are.

PN405

Have you read the Full Bench's decision from December 2019?‑‑‑I have not.

PN406

So you don't know what the Full Bench has said about the Greenacres tool?‑‑‑I do not.

PN407

If I can take you to paragraph 22 of your statement, please?‑‑‑Yes.

PN408

There you give some evidence in response to evidence given by Ms Last, and you do so as well in paragraph 23. Is that right?‑‑‑Yes.

PN409

It's the case, isn't it, that you're relying on what you've been told by others in order to answer those questions?‑‑‑Specifically about Ms Last, yes, but my experience around our - all the ADEs, leads me to that assertion.

PN410

Well, specifically in relation to Ms Last, your response is dependent on what other people have told you?‑‑‑Correct.

PN411

Because you have no personal knowledge whatsoever of what she does?‑‑‑That's correct.

***�� ERIC PETER TEED�� XXN MR HARDING

PN412

In paragraph 24 you give some evidence there about what a senior manager told you Ms Last does, and then you go on to say, halfway down, 'Tasks were allocated for Ms Last and for all employees dependent on the mix of employees in attendance.' Do you see that?‑‑‑I do.

PN413

And again, that is evidence you are giving the Full Bench based on what you've been told?‑‑‑Yes.

PN414

If I can flick through, please, to - you've attached to your statement a statement of Mr Andrew Don which is attachment B to your statement?‑‑‑Yes.

PN415

He provided this statement in 2018. Does he no longer work for Endeavour?‑‑‑No, he doesn't.

PN416

And in paragraph 17 he gave some evidence about the range of support services provided to supported employees. Do you see that?‑‑‑I do.

PN417

Is that still current?‑‑‑It's slightly modified, but in principle it's the same.

PN418

What does 'in principle' mean?‑‑‑Well, we still have people who support production outcomes, we have people who support employment development, employment coaches, a role that has gone from mere management employment outcomes, and that has been missing for the last little while. It's coming back into our structure for the reorganisation we're doing now.

PN419

It's the case, isn't it, that one of the factors that the NDIS has introduced is that an ADE like yours will be competing for workers as well as for work?‑‑‑Yes.

PN420

Because someone with an NDIS package, National Disability Insurance Scheme package - much easier to say when you're doing the whole thing?‑‑‑True.

PN421

Has a range of supports that they can take to any employer?‑‑‑Correct. Choice and control.

PN422

Choice. That's a critical aspect of the NDIS, isn't it?‑‑‑It is.

PN423

You could work in an ADE. Yes?‑‑‑Yes.

PN424

With your package of supports. You could go and work in open employment with your package of supports?‑‑‑I could.

***�� ERIC PETER TEED�� XXN MR HARDING

PN425

In that sense, you're competing, that is, Endeavour, with open employment for workers?‑‑‑Yes.

PN426

(indistinct) as well as other ADEs?‑‑‑Yes.

PN427

Is the way to read paragraph 17 that say an employment coach or a manager of employment outcomes would be services that Endeavour would offer to attract and retain workers?‑‑‑I can't speak for Andrew's wording here. I think the intent is - certainly our intent now, given this re‑focus on employment outcomes, is to view the ADE space as a transition through to ultimately open employment in a safe and supported way.

PN428

Okay, so the ADE then becomes a way of assisting someone to move on to something else?‑‑‑If that's what they choose to do.

PN429

If they say (indistinct)?‑‑‑Yes.

PN430

To that extent, you're providing a range of assistance funded by the NDIS to facilitate that transition?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN431

If you could just turn to paragraph 22 of Mr Don's statement?‑‑‑Yes.

PN432

So he's giving some evidence there in 2018 about the transition to the National Disability Insurance Agency, and then he says, 'Financial year 17, Endeavour received total funding of 1 million in relation to supported employment services.' I expect that that has gone up?‑‑‑Yes, it has.

PN433

Can you give us an estimate of what that is?‑‑‑I can't, but it's more than $1 million.

PN434

Well, is it like $10 million?‑‑‑I haven't got a specific number. It's a factual number I don't have in front of me, but it's significantly more than $1 million.

PN435

Like, a lot more?‑‑‑Yes.

PN436

Then he says in paragraph 23, 'ADEs generate revenue from commercial operations', and you agree with that?‑‑‑Yes.

***�� ERIC PETER TEED�� XXN MR HARDING

PN437

'And the commercial success of an ADE depends on the ability of a site to attract and retain business at a competitive price'?‑‑‑Correct.

PN438

You agree with that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN439

The competitive price includes the labour cost, doesn't it?‑‑‑It does.

PN440

He then gives some evidence about what he said was a loss in financial year 2017. Do you see that?‑‑‑I do.

PN441

I don't know whether you were working for - I won't ask you about that, but can I just show you a document, please, which is the Endeavour Foundation Financial Report. I'll ask you to identify it first. Do you want to spend a few minutes looking through that? Would you agree with me, Mr Teed, that that's the Endeavour Foundation's Financial Report for 30 June 2021?‑‑‑I would.

PN442

I tender that.

PN443

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The Endeavour Foundation Financial Report for year ending 30 June 2021 will be marked exhibit O.

EXHIBIT #O ENDEAVOUR FOUNDATION FINANCIAL REPORT FOR YEAR ENDING 30/06/2021

PN444

MR HARDING: Can I just take you to page 10 of that report, please?‑‑‑Yes.

PN445

This is the consolidated income statement. I don't know whether you're familiar with these numbers yourself, Mr Teed?‑‑‑No. Our CFO would elaborate on my numeric illiteracy.

PN446

Okay. I might have to join the club there?‑‑‑Yes.

PN447

Well, it speaks for itself, doesn't it, but you would agree with me that the Endeavour Foundation made a considerable amount of revenue in 2020 and 2021. That's what the document says?‑‑‑It appears that way, yes.

PN448

The surplus for 2020 was 36 million. You agree with that?‑‑‑Yes.

***�� ERIC PETER TEED�� XXN MR HARDING

PN449

And 30 million in 2021. Yes?‑‑‑Yes.

PN450

You see that employee expenses figure under 'Expenses'?‑‑‑Yes.

PN451

Would you agree with me that that is the wages paid to non‑disabled workers?‑‑‑Correct.

PN452

Supported employee expenses are 14, nearly 15 million, in 2020 and 16, nearly 17 million, in 2021. Is that how you would read it?‑‑‑That's how I read that, yes.

PN453

You agree with me that the much greater component of Endeavour's costs are for non‑disabled workers in wage costs?‑‑‑On those numbers, yes.

PN454

If I could take you to page 36, please?‑‑‑Yes.

PN455

You'll see item 24, 'Key management personnel'?‑‑‑Yes.

PN456

There's a note there about a number of key management personnel for 2020 and presumably 2021, and does that include you?‑‑‑Yes, it does.

PN457

So the number of key management personnel, including you, for 2021 is eight. Yes?‑‑‑On that, yes.

PN458

There's a line item 'Short‑term employee benefits'. You may or may not know this, but do you know whether that refers to wages or something else?‑‑‑I don't know, I'm sorry.

PN459

Thank you, Mr Teed?‑‑‑Thank you.

PN460

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Any re‑examination, Mr Ward?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WARD�� [11.59 AM]

PN461

MR WARD: Just briefly, if I can, your Honour. Thank you. Mr Teed, earlier in your cross‑examination Mr Harding was asking you some questions about Endeavour being, in his words, a commercial operation. Do you recall that?‑‑‑I do.

***�� ERIC PETER TEED�� RXN MR WARD

PN462

I think you agreed with him that your ADEs are commercial operations. Do you remember that?‑‑‑I do, yes.

PN463

Do you seek to maximise profit returns from your ADEs?‑‑‑No. We seek to maximise sustainability.

PN464

What does that mean?‑‑‑It means if we can remain viable we can keep providing employment opportunities to people with disability.

PN465

What does viable mean?‑‑‑Well, it means we earn sufficient profit to keep paying all the overheads and additional costs that go with running the operations the way we do.

PN466

So when you agreed that it's a commercial operation, what's its primary purpose?‑‑‑To support people with disability in the employment goals.

PN467

He then took you to paragraph 18. Can you go to that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN468

He asked you quite a few questions about 18(a). Do you recall broadly he was asking you about that?‑‑‑I do.

PN469

Tell me if I've misheard you. I think you said - he was querying whether or not you actually knew anything about Keon Park, and I think you said you've seen the work?‑‑‑I have.

PN470

Was that right?‑‑‑Yes, it is.

PN471

It was. So you've actually been there and seen people work?‑‑‑Yes.

PN472

He then asked you some questions about what you meant by little or no automation?‑‑‑Mm hmm.

PN473

You attached to your statement a statement of Ms Kate Last. If I could just take you to paragraph 5?‑‑‑Yes.

PN474

You see it notes as 'Cutting strings for sausages'. Do you see that?‑‑‑I do.

***�� ERIC PETER TEED�� RXN MR WARD

PN475

Have you observed that?‑‑‑I have.

PN476

What automation was involved in that?‑‑‑None.

PN477

You see the second one, 'Putting tins into boxes in a specific order'. Have you observed that?‑‑‑Not that specifically, no.

PN478

I won't ask you about that then. 'Packing muesli bars into boxes'?‑‑‑Yes.

PN479

What automation is involved in that?‑‑‑None. A gluing machine.

PN480

What's a gluing machine?‑‑‑It's where the final product is fed through a machine that glues the top of the box so it can be sealed closed.

PN481

And who operates that?‑‑‑A supported employee.

PN482

Is that all they do?‑‑‑Yes.

PN483

He then took you to the NDIS. So you recall answering some questions around NDIS?‑‑‑I do.

PN484

I think he said this to you. He said, 'So you compete for workers.' Do you recall that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN485

When you gave your answer, I think you said, 'Yes, we do.' Was your answer concerning competing for workers with a disability?

PN486

MR HARDING: I object to the question, your Honour. It's leading and it doesn't arise.

PN487

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I'll allow the question.

PN488

MR WARD: Thank you, your Honour. When you said you compete for workers, what types of workers were you talking about?‑‑‑Well, both supported and non‑supported employees.

***�� ERIC PETER TEED�� RXN MR WARD

PN489

And the non‑supported employees would do what?‑‑‑They support the supported employees, yes.

PN490

The supported employees work in the ADE?‑‑‑Yes.

PN491

Nothing further.

PN492

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. Thank you for your evidence, Mr Teed. You're excused and you're free to go?‑‑‑Thank you.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW�� [12.03 PM]

PN493

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: So the next witness is Mr Wallace. When can he be available?

PN494

MR WARD: Your Honour, is it possible to take an early lunch break? We could have him sort of ready to go straight afterwards.

PN495

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Is that suitable, Mr Harding?

PN496

MR HARDING: Yes, it is. I've got through the witnesses a little bit quicker than I expected, your Honour, so that's appropriate.

PN497

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. If the same speed occurs with Mr Wallace, is it possible that we can do any other witnesses today?

PN498

MR WARD: Your Honour, I've already made some inquiries, and we're struggling with that. We'll continue to see what we can do, but at this stage it appears that Mr Dauncey probably isn't available until tomorrow morning.

PN499

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: That being the case, we'll adjourn now and we'll take the lunch adjournment and resume at 1 pm.

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT�� [12.04 PM]

RESUMED�� [1.02 PM]

***�� ERIC PETER TEED�� RXN MR WARD

PN500

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. Are we ready to proceed with Mr Wallace?

PN501

MR WARD: I am, your Honour. I call Mr Andrew Wallace.

PN502

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: All right. Let's get Mr Wallace on the screen. So, Mr Wallace, if you're there, can you turn on your camera, please? All right. We'll administer the affirmation, Mr Wallace.

PN503

THE ASSOCIATE: Hi, Mr Wallace. Could you please state your full name and address?

PN504

MR WALLACE: Andrew Wallace, from (address supplied).

PN505

THE ASSOCIATE: Thank you. I'm going to read out the affirmation to you, and once I've completed it, if you could just confirm whether you agree or not by saying 'I do'.

PN506

MR WALLACE: Yes.

<ANDREW WALLACE, AFFIRMED�� [1.03 PM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR WARD�� [1.03 PM]

PN507

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Ward?

PN508

MR WARD: Thank you, your Honour. Mr Wallace, my name's Nigel Ward. We've never met. Can you see me?‑‑‑Not quite.

PN509

Not quite. Okay. Can you see me now?‑‑‑Yes.

PN510

Sort of. Okay, that's fine?‑‑‑Yes.

PN511

Thank you, Mr Wallace. As you know, I appear for ABI and the Business Chamber, and I think you've dealt with my colleagues before, Ms Simmons and Mr Scott. Can I ask you to restate your full name and address for the record?‑‑‑Yes. My full name is Andrew Michael Wallace and I live at (address supplied).

***�� ANDREW WALLACE�� XN MR WARD

PN512

Have you prepared a statement for these proceedings?‑‑‑Sorry, can you repeat that?

PN513

I will. Have you prepared a statement for these proceedings?‑‑‑Yes, I have.

PN514

Is that statement of 39 paragraphs with one annexure described as attachment A? Is that correct?‑‑‑That is correct.

PN515

Do you have a copy of that statement?‑‑‑I do, right in front of me.

PN516

Have you read that statement?‑‑‑Yes, I have.

PN517

Is it true and correct to the best of your knowledge and belief?‑‑‑It is.

PN518

I'd seek to tender that.

PN519

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The witness statement of Andrew Wallace dated 7 July 2022 will be marked exhibit P.

EXHIBIT #P WITNESS STATEMENT OF ANDREW WALLACE DATED 07/07/2022

PN520

Just hold on a sec, Mr Harding. All right. So I'm told that the Bar table camera, to use a technical expression, is stuffed, so we'll just have to do the best we can.

PN521

MR WARD: Mr Wallace, a gentleman to my left by the name of Mr Kemppi is going to ask you some questions. I don't know if you're going to be able to see him?‑‑‑Sure.

PN522

Thank you.

PN523

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Kemppi?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KEMPPI�� [1.05 PM]

***�� ANDREW WALLACE�� XXN MR KEMPPI

PN524

MR KEMPPI: Thank you. Hello, Mr Wallace. My name's Sunil Kemppi. I'm going to ask you a couple of questions. Can you hear me and see me all right?‑‑‑I can hear you okay.

PN525

Great, but you can't see me?‑‑‑No.

PN526

Okay. That might be a good thing, but we'll see how we go. I'm indebted. It's been pointed out that I haven't identified where I'm from. I'm appearing for the ACTU, the AED, United Workers Union and the HSU. I just want to ask you some questions first about your employment history. You say that you've worked for 11 years in supported employment services. Is that correct?‑‑‑That is correct, yes.

PN527

And that's just with SAGE, is that also correct, or its related entities?‑‑‑Yes. It's with SA Group Enterprises or its related entities.

PN528

In that case, I just want to pick up one point at paragraph 7 of your statement. You say that your statement is from your experience of working at SAGE and the industry generally. Would it be more correct to say that your statement is really just from your experience working at SAGE?‑‑‑No, because I have also attended and been a part of many committees and forums and conferences to hear what happens around the industry.

PN529

Conferences, but you've never worked for an ADE other than in the SAGE group. Is that correct?‑‑‑Yes. The SAGE group includes Minda Incorporated and SA Group. That operated independently prior to its amalgamation.

PN530

So you're giving evidence here on behalf of the SAGE and/or Minda, or that group, and not any other employer. Is that correct?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN531

I'm just going to ask you a few questions about staffing. At paragraph 20 of your statement you outline the staffing structure. I just want to ask you about a few of those roles. You describe a manager position at 20(a) of your statement. Does that manager report to you?‑‑‑No. No, that manager reports to a senior manager, who then reports to me.

PN532

I see. So the manager doesn't report directly to you?‑‑‑No, that's correct.

PN533

Then you describe some supervisors at 20(b). Do they report to the manager at 20(a)?‑‑‑Yes, they do.

***�� ANDREW WALLACE�� XXN MR KEMPPI

PN534

I might ask you a bit of an omnibus question, because that saves me having to ask about each category. Would it be fair to say that in your statement each line or tier of supervision that you've outlined reports to the level above it?‑‑‑Almost correct.

PN535

(indistinct)?‑‑‑Almost correct. I would say the administration staff report directly to the manager, and some of the team leaders also report directly to the manager due to their support and development roles.

PN536

So other than those two exceptions, the person described in 20(b), or the people in 20(b), report to 20(a)?‑‑‑That's correct, yes.

PN537

And the people described in 20(c) report to the people described in 20(b)?‑‑‑20(b) and 20(a).

PN538

20(b) and 20(a), okay, and none of those people report directly to you, do they?‑‑‑None of them do, no.

PN539

So then when it comes to hiring new staff at the production level, the supported employees, am I correct in inferring that that's not a process you would participate, as in the actual hiring and interviewing of people?‑‑‑I don't participate in that hiring and interviewing, but I approve all new positions and new hires.

PN540

But you don't actually participate in the act of hiring and interviewing?‑‑‑No.

PN541

In terms of when those new staff members come on board, you wouldn't personally handle their on‑boarding, would you?‑‑‑No.

PN542

So when you refer at paragraph 24 to a supervision ratio, is it correct that your position isn't factored into that ratio?‑‑‑That's correct, it's not.

PN543

And you don't directly participate in the process of allocating people to work, do you - supported employees, this is?‑‑‑Not to specific jobs, but we look at how many supported employees we have and what supports they require, and that's what I approve.

PN544

So you approve that at the aggregate level. Is that correct?‑‑‑Yes, but it's by the individual and what individual needs as far as support, development and goal attainment.

***�� ANDREW WALLACE�� XXN MR KEMPPI

PN545

Would it be fair to say that as one of the most senior managers within the organisation, your focus is on largely strategic matters?‑‑‑In an ideal world that would be the case, but in recent years things have been so lean and difficult from a financial perspective that there is a lot more getting involved in the day‑to‑day operations.

PN546

When you say the day‑to‑day operations, you don't actually spend very much time, though, on day‑to‑day questions of who will do what work, though, do you?‑‑‑No. That's happened at the management level or supervisor level, and any issues are reported up through to me.

PN547

I just want to come back now to your employment history. I'll just rattle off a few things that are in your statement. You say you started working as business manager for Aspitech, SAGE's recycling company. Is that right?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN548

Then you progressed to manager of ops at SAGE?‑‑‑That's right.

PN549

And then your current role, executive director?‑‑‑(indistinct) Yes.

PN550

So you started in 2011. You've been promoted a couple of times. Would it be fair to say that during that time the part of the organisation you're responsible for has been somewhat successful?‑‑‑Sorry, somewhat successful, did you say?

PN551

Yes?‑‑‑No, not really. The reason why Minda Incorporated - amalgamated with SA Group Enterprises, was due to financial distress of SA Group Enterprises back in 2014. So we've gone up and down.

PN552

(indistinct) Right, and now it is part of the Minda group?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN553

In your statement you said that SAGE has about 70 to 80 staff with disabilities - sorry, had 70 to 80 staff with disabilities and about 60 without in 2014. Is that right?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN554

And now it's more like about 600 employees in total, 350 of whom are living with disabilities?‑‑‑That's right. Most of those - the numbers have been pretty steady over the years. Most of those were originally in Minda Incorporated's supported employment.

***�� ANDREW WALLACE�� XXN MR KEMPPI

PN555

But at any rate, since 2014 that's a growth in terms of staff members?‑‑‑Holistically, when we look at Minda group and SA Group together, staff numbers have absolutely dropped from about 400 down to about 350.

PN556

I just want to take you to the annual report then that's annexed to your statement. The page number I'm going to use is the page number of the annual report. If you look at page 30 of the annual report - I appreciate you might be on only one screen there, so I'll give you a moment?‑‑‑That's all right.

PN557

I'm not sure if you've got it printed out, but let me know when you're there at page 30?‑‑‑Yes, I'm - yes.

PN558

You'd agree that says revenue for the commercial operations in 2020 was about 13.6 million. That's the 2020 figure?‑‑‑2020, yes, but that does not only include the supported employment activities. That includes some other activities across Minda group.

PN559

Okay, yes, so that's the whole of the group, and likewise?‑‑‑(Indistinct reply)

PN560

Likewise, the whole of the group revenue from commercial operations in 21 - 2021, that is, is about 14.4 million?‑‑‑Yes.

PN561

So commercial revenue, or revenue from commercial operations, across the Minda group has grown in that time?‑‑‑During those years it did, but that includes some divestments of some business sales.

PN562

I'll come to that, now that you mention it. At 31 there's a reference to a discontinued operation. There's a line item that says 'Operating loss from discontinued operation and asset impairment' which accounts for a negative figure of about 6.4 million. Is that correct?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN563

That relates to a part of the business that was part of the commercial operation that's been sold off. Is that correct?‑‑‑No, that's not correct. It's still retained. There was a strategy to look at divestment of that particular business.

PN564

Was that a one‑off loss, that $6.4 million write‑down?‑‑‑In that quantity, yes, but historically, that business was losing between one and two million dollars per year.

***�� ANDREW WALLACE�� XXN MR KEMPPI

PN565

At paragraph 38 of your statement, you've said that the NDIS funding alone doesn't cover the wages bill. Is that correct?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.

PN566

That then means that you would look to generate commercial revenue from customer contracts to make up the shortfall, or to be viable?‑‑‑Yes.

PN567

At 39 you say - paragraph 39 of your statement, that is, you say that you don't receive extra NDIS funding because you're not adopting the SWS. Do you acknowledge that if you did use the SWS, you would receive that extra funding?‑‑‑To be honest, I can't answer that. I'm not too sure on where it currently sits.

PN568

I'm just going to ask you a few questions about the NDIS funding that you do receive. I'm going to take a bit of information from a witness statement of Gerrie Mitra, who is the general manager of products and markets at the NDIA. That's attached to a witness statement that I've put in. I'm going to read some propositions from that statement. You don't necessarily need to look at that annexure. It's from my statement. I'm going to read the proposition to you and then just ask you some questions about it. There are a few reasons that NDIS funding can be given to cover a few different things. I'm just going to read those things and then I'm going to ask you about the sort of thing that in your organisation people are funded for. The first is on the job assessments related to the impact of a person's disability on their ability to work. Is that something that a supported employee working at SAGE might receive funding for?‑‑‑It's possible.

PN569

It's possible, okay. Assistance to develop a career plan, is that something that a supported employee at SAGE might receive funding for?‑‑‑It's something that we do, but we have not received funding for it.

PN570

Building essential foundational skills for work. Is that something that a supported employee at SAGE might receive funding for?‑‑‑Yes, through on the job training and others.

PN571

That was going to be my next question. So on the job training and intermittent support with daily work tasks?‑‑‑Yes. That's correct, yes.

PN572

And direct supervision or group based support to enable meaningful participation at work?‑‑‑Yes.

PN573

Physical assistance and personal care delivered in the workplace?‑‑‑Very minimal, but yes.

***�� ANDREW WALLACE�� XXN MR KEMPPI

PN574

So for that list of things that I've just read out, is it true to say that if SAGE provides those services to its employees, that funding flows to SAGE?‑‑‑The funding flows through to SAGE to provide employment to support workers and others to help achieve those goals, or those line items.

PN575

Those are all supports that are provided to an employee whether or not they work in an ADE. Would you agree with that?‑‑‑No, they provide - they're linked to an individual. So in this case they flow through to the supports provided to the individual ‑ ‑ ‑

PN576

Correct. I might just ‑ ‑ ‑?‑‑‑ ‑ ‑ ‑ with a disability.

PN577

I might just re‑put that question then. That individual could receive that support whether or not they worked in ADE. Is that correct?‑‑‑I believe so.

PN578

So that individual could, hypothetically, work in open employment and receive that level of NDIS support in relation to that employment?‑‑‑Yes, if the right support mechanisms are put in place to match the funding.

PN579

So there's a sort of almost a job market competition there, where the employee has a choice about whether they work in open employment or in an ADE?‑‑‑Absolutely. I mean, the whole NDIS is to create more choice and control.

PN580

SAGE describes itself as a social enterprise. That's, of course, correct?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN581

I'm going to read out a definition of a social enterprise to you and I just want to see if you agree with this as a definition of social enterprise. It is as a profit‑making venture set up to tackle a social need. Do you agree with that definition?‑‑‑Not with profit‑making. Historically, in my experience, there hasn't been too many profitable social enterprises.

PN582

So you don't agree that a social enterprise could be defined as a profit‑making venture set up to tackle a social need?‑‑‑It could be, but it would be unfair to put it all into one category to say they're all profitable.

PN583

Would you say that that is a true definition with respect to SAGE?‑‑‑No, definitely not.

***�� ANDREW WALLACE�� XXN MR KEMPPI

PN584

I'm just going to show a document to you now. Let's all see how the Internet connection handles this. Sorry, I just need to find the right one. Document 2. There should be a document coming your way. Please let me know when you have it. Has an email come through with that document?‑‑‑Yes, it's just come through.

PN585

Okay, great?‑‑‑Yes, I've got it.

PN586

That document you're looking at, do you agree that that's an extract from the SAGE website, www.sage.org.au?‑‑‑Yes, it is.

PN587

I'll just draw your attention to the second paragraph under the heading Who We Are. Do you agree that that says, 'The text books call a social enterprise a profit‑making venture set up to tackle a social need'?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN588

It goes on to say, 'As a specialist supported employment service for people with a disability, our social enterprise model is built on creating viable businesses in mainstream commercial sectors', and it goes on?‑‑‑Yes.

PN589

Do you agree that that's a true statement with respect to SAGE?‑‑‑Yes, that's our mission.

PN590

So it's a purpose of SAGE - and I'm not suggesting it's the only purpose, but it is a purpose of SAGE to be a viable profit‑making business. Is that correct?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN591

And as part of that you market SAGE as having highly skilled staff that can output a quality product. Is that right?‑‑‑Yes.

PN592

So you'd agree that commercial considerations factor into how the commercial part of the organisation operates?‑‑‑They factor into it, but also the key factor and first and foremost is creating meaningful employment.

PN593

The social enterprise side of Minda - of SAGE receives revenue from customers. Correct?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN594

It performs services or produces goods for those customers?‑‑‑That's right.

***�� ANDREW WALLACE�� XXN MR KEMPPI

PN595

And it would be fair to say that those customers might set some expectations about how those services are performed or how those products are produced?‑‑‑They could do. Sometimes ‑ ‑ ‑

PN596

(indistinct) Sorry, go on?‑‑‑Sometimes it's about us finding suitable work.

PN597

But at any rate, your customers might set some expectations about whatever the end product is?‑‑‑They have some expectations, like any customer, on the quality and outcomes of the deliverables.

PN598

As a commercial operation it would be fair to say that SAGE would have an interest in meeting those expectations?‑‑‑If they want to keep people engaged in meaningful work, then, yes, of course.

PN599

I just want to ask now about the type of business that SAGE is. I'm going to describe two types of business, and I'm going to ask you which of these SAGE is. The first kind of business is the kind of business that makes something, makes products first, then goes out to the market to see if anyone will buy that product, and the second kind of business is the kind of business that enters into a customer relationship and then makes something according to specifications, or does something according to specifications. Would it be fair to say that SAGE is the second type of business?‑‑‑No, it's definitely a mix of both.

PN600

So when you are making products or performing services according to customer specifications - so when you are doing that, you do agree, though, that it's those specifications that would drive the operations and the production requirements?‑‑‑They would drive, I guess, the final stage. What that wouldn't drive is how we would actually do the work.

PN601

But they would drive the output?‑‑‑Yes, as the output has to match the customer's expectations.

PN602

I just want to bring you back now to the annual report. Page 30 again we're on. Let me know when you have that up?‑‑‑Yes.

PN603

I'm just going to run you through some of the figures. There's a figure for the wages bill. Looks like that's just wages and salary in the order of 104 million. Is that right?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN604

And Minda group has about two and a half thousand employees?‑‑‑That's right.

***�� ANDREW WALLACE�� XXN MR KEMPPI

PN605

I just want to make sure I'm matching the right figure here. That 104 million relates to those two and a half thousand employees. Is that correct?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN606

Just doing some rough maths for that, that's an average wage of about 56,000, is that right, per annum?‑‑‑Yes, but there will be a lot of part‑time casual staff included in those wage figures.

PN607

But you agree that if everybody in the organisation received the same wage - which of course they wouldn't. If everybody received the same wage, they'd all get $56,000?‑‑‑I think that's highly subjective, considering how many part‑time and casual staff we have. To draw on that larger comparison would be too difficult for me to say.

PN608

Let's go a different way then. So if that's the average wage, some people would receive more than that and some people would receive less than that. Do you agree with that proposition?‑‑‑Yes, I think when you annualise it, yes.

PN609

It would be fair to say, wouldn't it, that the supported employees would receive less than that amount that I've named, less than 56,000?‑‑‑I couldn't tell you for certain. There's a varied amount of wages by the individual depending on how many hours and what level they are at.

PN610

But you couldn't possibly say that there's a supported employee in your organisation receiving more than $56,000 per annum, could you?‑‑‑I wouldn't be able to deny it. We do have some supported employees on 100 per cent on their current assessed wage tool. I couldn't tell you what grade they are at, so I'm unable to tell you if they go above that amount or not.

PN611

I put it to you that it would stand to reason, at least, that the majority of your supported employees would be earning a lot less than $56,000 per annum?‑‑‑Yes, like I said, I'd rather not make an assumption on that.

PN612

Would it be fair to say then that you actually don't know with the requisite level of detail how much the supported employees are earning?‑‑‑I couldn't tell you by the individual or by an average wage.

PN613

You don't have that sort of granular understanding that would lend itself to saying most of them earn less than a certain amount?‑‑‑I could obtain that information, but I don't have that in front of me.

***�� ANDREW WALLACE�� XXN MR KEMPPI

PN614

There are only about 350 supported employees. Is that right?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN615

I just want to put those two things together then. The supported employees would account for about a seventh of the total staff numbers, 350 out of two and a half thousand. Is that right?‑‑‑When you look at the head counts, yes.

PN616

You agree with the proposition then that the wages bite for supported employees is a relatively small fraction of the total wages for Minda?‑‑‑It's a similar sort of question to � I don't want to make some assumptions without the data in front of me. Some supported employees work fulltime, some only work one day a week and some only work five hours a week. So by looking at the head count it wouldn't be a realistic statistical analysis with the total wage bill of Minda Group.

PN617

Thank you. Sorry, I'll just need a quick indulgence for all of the discussion of paper based versus electronic, it appears my computer has now frozen on me. So hopefully I'll have this back up and running in a minute.

PN618

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Switch it off and switch it on again.

PN619

MR KEMPPI: Yes, have you tried turning it off and off. No, it's just frozen on me completely. I'm just trying to get it up on my device. In your statement you've given some evidence about what you call job tailoring. There's a heading, 'Job Tailoring', I just want to take you through that notion and I want to be sure about what you mean by it. When you refer to job tailoring, are you referring to a process where you match an employee to a job that needs to be done, perhaps offering some support and some training so that they can do that job?‑‑‑It's more around how jobs are modified and tasks are modified to enable an individual to complete a task or a job.

PN620

So it's about modification to enable a person to complete that job?‑‑‑It's about modification, it's about making jigs, changing a process to suit an individual. It's really quite endless because each individual has different requirements.

PN621

I just want to put a proposition to you then about how it works in practice. Is it the case that employees are engaged and they're placed in roles based on a commercial need? In other words, jobs that need to be done?‑‑‑It's employees are put into jobs that need to be done with the right supports, tools and tailoring to make that successful.

***�� ANDREW WALLACE�� XXN MR KEMPPI

PN622

I'll just go to your examples. Now, you've given three examples of what you call job tailoring. Did you participate directly in those examples or were you briefed by (indistinct)?‑‑‑Let me just have a review.

PN623

Can you not remember?‑‑‑There was, for example, the HR administration, I was involved in a strategy and what the task breakdown could be for that one and that was clause 31. The declining dexterity one mentioned in clause 32, I haven't been involved in. That's something that our training and development and support team do constantly with the individuals but obviously I get the reports about it and have seen the jigs created.

PN624

Through clause 33 as an example with the higher risk licence forklift training, that is one I have been heavily involved in.

PN625

So the jigs, for example, you don't have any direct first-hand knowledge of?‑‑‑Aside from the reports and seeing them in action, no, I didn't help create them.

PN626

Let's go to the forklifts then. So you have a production facility, the production facility uses forklifts. Right?‑‑‑In this example, the production facility doesn't need to use forklifts.

PN627

So you're saying you don't need to use forklifts in the production facility?‑‑‑Yes, we could use just a simple pallet jack to complete the task.

PN628

But, in fact, you do use forklifts. Whether or not you use a pallet jack, you do use forklifts?‑‑‑We do now, yes.

PN629

I assume you use those forklifts for what everyone uses forklifts for, moving goods around?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.

PN630

Perhaps there's some efficiency in using a forklift compared to a pallet jack?‑‑‑Yes, there are.

***�� ANDREW WALLACE�� XXN MR KEMPPI

PN631

I just want to drill down into the example, then, and what it's speaking of. Now, the example is of some people who ultimately received forklift licences. Am I correct in saying that there was no change to the licensing requirements themselves involved in this example?‑‑‑They're quite significantly different because the training program is quite substantial. The standard training program might only be three days. Two days in some cases. In this case it's taking about six months.

PN632

You need a licence to drive a forklift, right?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN633

There are some requirements in getting that licence?‑‑‑That's right.

PN634

You didn't change those requirements to accommodate these three people? You might have supported them in training but you didn't change the actual requirements to get your forklift licence, did you?‑‑‑We haven't changed that yet because they're yet to obtain their licence due to haven't been able to achieve the safety requirements for operating a forklift.

PN635

But it's not in your power to change the requirements of forklift licensing?‑‑‑No, that's done by SafeWork SA.

PN636

What you can do is offer some training and support to help these three people get their forklift licence?‑‑‑Correct and in our processes we have ongoing support to match them with paperwork requirements, manifests, maintaining safe loads and ensuring our processes don't overload a forklift, that sort of thing.

PN637

This is an example then of training and support to allow a supported employee to meet a rigid requirement?‑‑‑It's an example of that but it doesn't showcase the ongoing support requirements of completing that task. The retraining requirement that would normally be required, as an example.

PN638

Would those forklift drivers, when they're engaged as forklift drivers, be classified under levels A or B under the Fair Work Commission's � under the proposal that's the subject of these proceedings?‑‑‑To be honest I wouldn't be able to answer that fully. Apart from reading the document I've got other people that are experts on the classifications and how everything is assessed.

PN639

Would you be in a similar position if I asked with respect to whether they would be A1 or B1 or how they would be classified under the ABI proposal?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct, I wouldn't be able to tell you where they classify or even how it's calculated.

PN640

Is forklift driving a simple task in your view?‑‑‑It depends on the job and the actual task you're doing. It can be quite risky which is why it's classified as a high risk licence but some tasks are very simple, yes.

***�� ANDREW WALLACE�� XXN MR KEMPPI

PN641

So, on your evidence, some tasks associated with driving a forklift are simple?‑‑‑They could be, depending on the requirements.

PN642

That would mean in your view they would meet one of the definitional parts of A or B classifications, is that right, for simplicity?

PN643

MR WARD: I object to the question. I think if he's going to take the witness to this, in fairness he's going to have to have it in front of the witness.

PN644

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, I think that's correct, Mr Kemppi.

PN645

MR KEMPPI: I'll withdraw that. Going now to the HR example - - -

PN646

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Sorry, before you move on, Mr Kemppi, I think some of your questions assume that a disabled person under the award � sorry, under the proposed award structure would be classified as A or B. Is that right?

PN647

MR KEMPPI: That they could be, Vice President. I was asking the witness whether or not in his view these employees would be classified as A or B.

PN648

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: That seems to foreclose that it might be neither of those things.

PN649

MR KEMPPI: That would have been an available answer.

PN650

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: No, it might have been the terms of your question seem to assume that it would be A or B.

PN651

MR KEMPPI: I see. If I put that question again, I will remedy that.

PN652

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, thank you.

PN653

MR KEMPPI: Just going to that HR example, do you agree that the tasks that this supported employee performs are tasks that the business needs to be done?‑‑‑Not in this example, no, not at all.

PN654

Going to the jig example, you say that the outcome of that example has the employee ultimately being able to perform their role to the expected productivity. Is that correct?‑‑‑Yes, to the expected productivity of that particular individual according to their assessed rate.

***�� ANDREW WALLACE�� XXN MR KEMPPI

PN655

That was through the provision of some different equipment and a slightly modified process?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN656

Are you familiar with the concept of reasonable accommodations?‑‑‑Yes, I am.

PN657

In this example would a fair characterisation be that your organisation made some reasonable accommodations for this employee?‑‑‑Not in this case. I would say as an example for the same person, height adjustable, a table to be able to do the work is a reasonable activity but completing and manufacturing from scratch a highly modified tool and jig to complete a job, would not be reasonable.

PN658

So you don't consider this to be a reasonable accommodation for a person with a disability?‑‑‑Not for that particular task.

PN659

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: He's answered that question.

PN660

MR KEMPPI: I'm just clarifying, yes. Thank you, I have no further questions.

PN661

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Any re-examination, Mr Ward? Sorry, before we go on, did you want to tender the website extract?

PN662

MR KEMPPI: Yes, I do seek to tender that.

PN663

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: The extract from the SA Group Enterprises' website will be marked exhibit Q.

EXHIBIT #Q EXTRACT FROM THE SA GROUP ENTERPRISES' WEBSITE

PN664

Mr Ward.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WARD�� [1.44 PM]

PN665

MR WARD: Just a few, your Honour.

PN666

Mr Wallace, can you hear me?‑‑‑Yes, I can.

***�� ANDREW WALLACE�� RXN MR WARD

PN667

I don't think you can see me though, can you?‑‑‑No, no.

PN668

I won't make any jokes. If I can just ask you a few questions, if I can. Just by way of clarification, right at the beginning Mr Kemppi took you to paragraph 20. Could you just go back to that?‑‑‑Yes, I have it in front of me.

PN669

I think he was asking you some questions about your involvement and then I think he asked you who organises the work of supported employees day-to-day, and I think you said, 'Management and supervisors'. Do you recall that answer?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN670

Yes. Can you just tell me, he then took you to the BSO and the team leaders and I think you said, was it your answer that they report to the supervisors?‑‑‑It depends on what their actual position is. Some of them report directly to the manager and some report to the supervisors.

PN671

I may have missed your evidence but did you explain why that's different?‑‑‑No, I didn't but I can - - -

PN672

Can you - - -?‑‑‑ - - - cover off, yes. Basically we have some team leaders that are in more of the training and development role and due to the nature of that training and development they report to a manager, not an area supervisor on the floor.

PN673

Would I be right in saying then that the BSOs report to the supervisors?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.

PN674

Mr Kemppi then took you to some questions about the NDIS and I think he said that it's a job market competition. Do you recall that?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN675

How many people do you lose each year from your ADE to open employment in the job market competition?

PN676

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: You mean supported employees?

PN677

MR WARD: Sorry, supported employees. How many support employees leave you each year to go into open employment?‑‑‑In my entire 10 years I've had three go to open employment and two have returned to supported employment.

***�� ANDREW WALLACE�� RXN MR WARD

PN678

So when you were talking about the job market competition, you're talking about those three and two of them came back?‑‑‑That's right.

PN679

You then right at the end of your evidence you were asked some questions about job tailoring and you used this phrase in your answer, you said, 'We make modifications to the work to enable a person to complete the job.' Do you recall making that?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN680

Earlier on you used the phrase which was, 'Creating meaningful employment.' Do you remember that phrase?‑‑‑Yes, I do.

PN681

Are they related phrases or do they mean something different?‑‑‑No, they are related. We want every job to be meaningful, it's just about how we enable that for a particular individual.

PN682

Nothing further, thank you. Thank you, Mr Wallace. If the witness could be excused?

PN683

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes, thank you, Mr Wallace, for your evidence. You're excused which means you can simply switch off or whatever you do?‑‑‑All right. Thank you very much.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW�� [1.48 PM]

PN684

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Mr Ward, do we have any further witnesses available?

PN685

MR WARD: Unfortunately, your Honour, I'm really sorry but we don't. Mr Dauncey tried to remove himself from his commitments this afternoon and he has failed to do that. Our plan at this stage is to try to - - -

PN686

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: I'm told that he tried to join the meeting at some stage.

PN687

MR WARD: I wasn't told that at all. I was told he wasn't available until tomorrow morning.

***�� ANDREW WALLACE�� RXN MR WARD

PN688

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: We'll proceed on that basis, then. So we'll resume Mr Dauncey at 10 am tomorrow. Can I ask the parties if they wish to show any Teams witness some documents, if they can arrange beforehand to have a physical version of the document in the witness' hands when they give evidence? And I'm also told that we may need to update the teams links for tomorrow but we'll advise of that.

PN689

Before we adjourn, can I ask you a question, Mr Harding, and I emphasise I'm not asking you to give an immediate answer if you don't want to. In respect of section 153 of the Fair Work Act are we to proceed on the basis that the references to discrimination in the section are concerned only with direct or (indistinct) or textual discrimination and not indirect discrimination?

PN690

MR HARDING: No.

PN691

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: There's a Federal Court authority on that point. I might have missed it, I couldn't see that your jurisdictional submissions addressed this question.

PN692

MR HARDING: Well, the authority is cited in those submissions, I think you're referring to the decision of Tracey J.

PN693

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Yes.

PN694

MR HARDING: I'm referring to that decision.

PN695

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Right.

PN696

MR HARDING: For my argument I don't need to go to indirect discrimination. I think (indistinct) in my submissions that distinction between direct and indirect discrimination is a distraction. The concept of discrimination (indistinct) set out in the (indistinct).

PN697

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Right.

PN698

MR HARDING: It might be that for purposes of illustration one can go to those statutory definitions and perhaps in the circumstances that we're dealing with it is more akin to direct but it's a distraction, in my submission � well, it will be a distraction, in my submission, for import concepts to arrive from anti-discrimination law in understanding that concept in the Fair Work Act, and that's what we says.

PN699

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: So again I'm not asking you to answer this now but I'm merely raising it. If the classification definition � I emphasise I'm speaking only for myself and I'm really only thinking out aloud, I think. If the classification definitions for the proposed grades A and B remove any reference to disability as a criterion and simply referred to the job, does that resolve the problem? I'll allow you to expand upon that in due course but I just wanted to give you notice of some of my inchoate thoughts on the matter. We'll now adjourn and resume at 10 am tomorrow.

ADJOURNED UNTIL TUESDAY, 16 AUGUST 2022 �� [1.53 PM]

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

EXHIBIT #A STATEMENT OF AGREED FACTS DATED 04/08/2022......... PN13

EXHIBIT #B WITNESS STATEMENT OF KIRSTEN WILSON RE JURISDICTIONAL OBJECTIONS, DATED 13/05/2022...................................................................... PN16

EXHIBIT #C WITNESS STATEMENT OF KATE LAST DATED 20/05/2022 PN17

EXHIBIT #D WITNESS STATEMENT OF RODNEY DAVIS DATED 21/07/2022 PN18

EXHIBIT #E WITNESS STATEMENT OF BRENDAN FORD DATED 22/07/2022� PN19

EXHIBIT #F WITNESS STATEMENT OF RON MCCALLUM DATED 21/07/2022�� PN20

EXHIBIT #G WITNESS STATEMENT OF MS KEMPPI DATED 04/08/2022 PN21

EXHIBIT #H BUNDLE OF 14 WITNESS STATEMENTS FILED BY OUR VOICE AUSTRALIA............................................................................................................ PN22

EXHIBIT #I TRIAL REPORT.............................................................................. PN25

CHRIS CHRISTODOULOU, AFFIRMED.......................................................... PN44

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR WARD...................................................... PN44

EXHIBIT #J WITNESS STATEMENT OF CHRIS CHRISTODOULOU DATED 08/07/2022................................................................................................................................... PN58

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HARDING.................................................... PN61

EXHIBIT #K EXTRACTS FROM GREENACRES' WEBSITE....................... PN94

EXHIBIT #K GREENACRES GENERAL PURPOSE FINANCIAL REPORT FOR YEAR ENDED 30/06/2021................................................................................................ PN270

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WARD................................................................. PN273

EXHIBIT #L GREENACRES GENERAL PURPOSE FINANCIAL REPORT FOR YEAR ENDED 30/06/2021................................................................................................ PN297

THE WITNESS WITHDREW............................................................................. PN306

ERIC PETER TEED, AFFIRMED...................................................................... PN326

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR WARD.................................................... PN326

EXHIBIT #M WITNESS STATEMENT OF ERIC TEED DATED 08/07/2022 PN334

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR HARDING.................................................. PN334

EXHIBIT #N EXTRACT FROM ENDEAVOUR FOUNDATION WEBSITE PN394

EXHIBIT #O ENDEAVOUR FOUNDATION FINANCIAL REPORT FOR YEAR ENDING 30/06/2021............................................................................................................... PN443

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WARD................................................................. PN460

THE WITNESS WITHDREW............................................................................. PN492

ANDREW WALLACE, AFFIRMED.................................................................. PN506

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR WARD.................................................... PN506

EXHIBIT #P WITNESS STATEMENT OF ANDREW WALLACE DATED 07/07/2022�� PN519

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR KEMPPI...................................................... PN523

EXHIBIT #Q EXTRACT FROM THE SA GROUP ENTERPRISES' WEBSITE PN663

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WARD................................................................. PN664

THE WITNESS WITHDREW............................................................................. PN683