PN1

JUSTICE ROSS: Could I have the appearances please?

PN2

MR W FRIEND: Commission pleases, I seek permission to appear with my learned friend Mr Tierney from the SDA in both matters.

PN3

JUSTICE ROSS: Yes, Mr Friend.

PN4

MR P WHEELAHAN: If the Commission pleases, I seek permission to appear with Mr Tindley on behalf of the Australian Retailers Association and the Master Grocers Australia.

PN5

JUSTICE ROSS: Thank you. Do I take it permission's not opposed in each case and it's put on the basis that the matter will be dealt with more efficiently, given its complexity, if permission were granted?

PN6

MR FRIEND: Yes, President.

PN7

MR WHEELAHAN: That's so.

PN8

JUSTICE ROSS: Permission is granted in each case. Just before we get to the witnesses, can I just check the material that we've got. I wouldn't want to get to the end of the case and discover we haven't read something you've submitted. If for the SDA we have the expert report of Professor Borland, we have your submissions in support of your claim of 21 May, submissions in reply of 23 July. There are two other documents, one is the 8 August which is the proposed findings.

PN9

MR FRIEND: Yes.

PN10

JUSTICE ROSS: There is a commentary I think filed at the same time as your reply submission, in relation to the Commission's background paper of 5 May 2017.

PN11

MR FRIEND: Yes.

PN12

JUSTICE ROSS: Nothing else from the SDA?

PN13

MR FRIEND: Well there were some documents requested last night arising from Professor Borland's paper which I intend to tender through his this morning.

PN14

JUSTICE ROSS: Yes, yes. I don't think you need to formally tender them through him but for the purpose of him identifying that those are the documents referred to in his - no, fine, thank you.

PN15

MR FRIEND: Thank you.

PN16

JUSTICE ROSS: Mr Wheelahan, you've got an expert report by Dr Sands, six statements; Campbell Vears, Slaughter, Freeman, Dorwald and Ferrier.

PN17

MR WHEELAHAN: I do, your Honour. Can I say with respect to Ms Ferrier, she's declined our invitation to give evidence.

PN18

JUSTICE ROSS: So we can remove Ferrier?

PN19

MR WHEELAHAN: Unless my learned friend has no objection to it being tendered without cross-examination, otherwise it will be removed.

PN20

MR FRIEND: We do object to it being tendered without cross-examination.

PN21

JUSTICE ROSS: Right. Well that answers that. So five statements then. Similarly, your submissions in support of your claim of 21 May, submissions in reply of 23 July and proposed findings of 8 August.

PN22

MR WHEELAHAN: Yes.

PN23

JUSTICE ROSS: We also received correspondence from ABI dated 13 August, essentially supporting the position of the ARA and the MGA.

PN24

MR WHEELAHAN: Your Honour, there's also written submissions - sorry. There's one additional document and I apologise for the very late production of it. I've just given it to my learned friend this morning. It deals with the executive summary to Dr Sands' export report and essentially it's been annotated with footnotes, so in his executive summary - I'll just wait until it's handed up.

PN25

JUSTICE ROSS: This is just a revision to his report, is that right?

PN26

MR WHEELAHAN: Essentially.

PN27

JUSTICE ROSS: So the difference is it's referring to the relevant tables that - - -

PN28

MR WHEELAHAN: Yes, the source of his conclusions. He made a number of conclusions in his summary and last night he's put together the work of actually footnoting the basis - - -

PN29

JUSTICE ROSS: But he hasn't changed anything else?

PN30

MR WHEELAHAN: One or two minor changes to his report, yes.

PN31

JUSTICE ROSS: Right, well you can put that through him and we can deal with it at the time.

PN32

MR WHEELAHAN: Yes.

PN33

JUSTICE ROSS: There's also a general retail industry profile that was published by the Commission on 30 July this year. There's a document that was sent to you on 9 August which seeks to summarise the relevant statements of principle regarding the review and there is a background paper of 5 May 2017 on late night and Saturday penalty rates in the General Retail Industry Award which has been the subject of comment by the SDA.

PN34

Can I raise two things. Mr Wheelahan you'll see that the SDA in their submission in reply provides an annotated version of that document dated 5 May. So of the Commission's document about the history of the provisions. I wasn't sure if you had addressed that specifically in your material. If not, I'd encourage the parties through their instructors perhaps to confer on those issues because that's something that ought to be the subject of an agreed position; either the histories - well the history's the history. Whatever you want to say about it might be different but it would save us the trouble of having to go through each point if you're able to reach an agreed position on that.

PN35

The second issue relates to the SDA's submission of the 21 May 2018 and this is for you, Mr Friend. Let me just turn it up. This is at paragraph 23. It's the observation by the Full Bench dealing with the Fast Food Award - - -

PN36

MR FRIEND: Yes.

PN37

JUSTICE ROSS: That it was a common feature of awards that the casual employees receive the relevant loadings in addition to casual loadings.

PN38

MR FRIEND: Yes.

PN39

JUSTICE ROSS: It'd be of assistance if your instructor can set out well which awards are they that might be relevant to these proceedings.

PN40

MR FRIEND: We'll have a look. We were perhaps relying on the Full Bench's assessment there but we'll try and find some awards that - - -

PN41

JUSTICE ROSS: Look, the other way of dealing with it is you can have a discussion with the other side and if that proposition's not contested then we probably don't need to go too much further.

PN42

MR FRIEND: Yes, thank you, your Honour.

PN43

JUSTICE ROSS: Right. I think - is there anything else preliminary before we turn to the first witness? No? Right.

PN44

MR FRIEND: Thank you, your Honour. I call Professor Borland.

PN45

THE ASSOCIATE: Please state your full name and address.

PN46

PROFESSOR BORLAND: Jeffrey Ian Borland, (address supplied).

<JEFFREY IAN BORLAND, AFFIRMED [9.43 AM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR FRIEND [9.43 AM]

PN47

MR FRIEND: Professor Borland, would you state your full name please?‑‑‑Jeffrey Ian Borland.

PN48

Your address?‑‑‑(Address supplied).

PN49

Your occupation, sir?‑‑‑Professor of economics at the University of Melbourne.

*** JEFFREY IAN BORLAND XN MR FRIEND

PN50

You've prepared a report at the request of the SDA in relation to this matter, is that right?‑‑‑I did.

PN51

Can you have a look at a copy of this document please? Is that a copy of your report?‑‑‑It is.

PN52

Does that set out in an appendix your qualifications and your expertise in relation to this area?‑‑‑It does.

PN53

Insofar as it contains observations of fact, those are matters that you have ascertained through your research and other means?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN54

The opinions contained are yours based upon those facts?‑‑‑They are.

PN55

Now in the course of that report you make reference to four articles or four pieces of research. Can I ask you to look at these documents and make sure that these are the four documents. First, a document by Inga and Mark Wooden entitled "Measurement, prevalence and the socio-demographic structure of non-standard employment: The Australian case". Does the Bench require copies of these - - -

PN56

JUSTICE ROSS: Yes.

PN57

MR FRIEND: Yes. Is that a copy of the document that you refer to in your report?‑‑‑I believe it is. I guess I only became aware of the request for the documents this morning because I was travelling back from Canberra last night and haven't checked my email since about 6 o'clock last night. I think the documents you requested, like three of them were just versions off the web, so I'm assuming that the versions that have been taken off would be the versions I consulted. The Lass and Wooden one, I guess I was a bit concerned that the version I was working off might have been an earlier version, but I've just taken the opportunity to check the numbers in my report against the numbers in this version that you have been given and they match up, so I'm confident that the Lass and Wooden one is also the same version that I worked off, that you've been given.

PN58

JUSTICE ROSS: Thank you.

PN59

MR FRIEND: I tender that if the Commission pleases.

*** JEFFREY IAN BORLAND XN MR FRIEND

PN60

JUSTICE ROSS: Mark that exhibit SDA1.

EXHIBIT #SDA1 INGA LASS AND MARK WOODEN DOCUMENT "MEASUREMENT, PREVALENCE AND THE SOCIO-DEMOGRAPHIC STRUCTURE OF NON-STANDARD EMPLOYMENT: THE AUSTRALIAN CASE"

PN61

MR FRIEND: The next one is a document by Buddelmeyer, McVicar and Wooden entitled "Non-standard contingent employment and job satisfaction: A panel data analysis". I'll give the witness a copy?‑‑‑Yes, that would be the same.

PN62

Is that a copy of that document?‑‑‑Yes, I believe so.

PN63

Yes. Are there enough copies for the Bench?

PN64

JUSTICE ROSS: Yes.

PN65

MR FRIEND: If not we have another one. Yes, I tender that if the Commission pleases.

PN66

JUSTICE ROSS: Exhibit SDA2.

EXHIBIT #SDA2 BUDDELMEYER, McVICAR AND WOODEN DOCUMENT, "NON-STANDARD CONTINGENT EMPLOYMENT AND JOB SATISFACTION: A PANEL DATA ANALYSIS"

PN67

MR FRIEND: Next one is the CEP discussion paper, No. 1428 dated May 2016. That's a copy of that document?‑‑‑I believe so.

PN68

I tender that if the Commission pleases.

PN69

JUSTICE ROSS: Exhibit SDA3.

EXHIBIT #SDA3 CEP DISCUSSION PAPER NO. 1428, DATED MAY 2016

PN70

MR FRIEND: Finally, the parliamentary library statistical snapshot on "Characteristics and use of casual employees in Australia" 19 January 2018. Have you got a copy of that document? That's correct, yes?‑‑‑I believe it's the same document.

*** JEFFREY IAN BORLAND XN MR FRIEND

PN71

I tender that if the Commission pleases.

PN72

JUSTICE ROSS: Exhibit SDA4.

EXHIBIT #SDA4 PARLIAMENTARY LIBRARY STATISTICAL SNAPSHOT ON "CHARACTERISTICS AND USE OF CASUAL EMPLOYEES IN AUSTRALIA" DATED 19/01/2018

PN73

MR FRIEND: In reviewing those documents this morning can I direct your attention to paragraph 2.22 of your report. Sorry that's my fault, that's not the correct paragraph. 4.4, I'm sorry on page 17. That has a reference to Lass and Wooden figure of 32.3 per cent. Is there a correction you'd like to make there?‑‑‑Yes, it should be 33.2, I apologise. So that was the Lass and Wooden one, I was comparing the numbers in my report to make sure that they matched up with the version of a paper that the Commissioners were to be given, and they do all match up except I discovered that I'd obviously transposed the 3 and the 2, so I apologise for that.

PN74

Subject to that correction, the contents of your report are true and correct?‑‑‑That's right, I believe so.

PN75

I now tender the report, if the Commission pleases.

PN76

JUSTICE ROSS: Mark that exhibit SDA5.

EXHIBIT #SDA5 REPORT OF PROFESSOR BORLAND

PN77

MR FRIEND: If you could wait there please, professor.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WHEELAHAN [9.49 AM]

PN78

MR WHEELAHAN: Professor Borland, I'll just deal with the first of your three conclusions, the first one being that you summarise that the impact on the weekly total cost of labour would be relatively small. That phrase of course does not record any statistical reference to what might be small, as opposed to medium or significant. Is that right?‑‑‑No formal statistical meaning. Is that what you mean?

PN79

Yes. Well I'm asking you what it means?‑‑‑So yes, I'm not using - I'm not using the term small in terms of any formal, yes, statistical meaning. I'm using it in terms of the - assessing the consequences of sort of the change in - a change in wages of that size.

*** JEFFREY IAN BORLAND XXN MR WHEELAHAN

PN80

When you make these judgments, for want of a better word, in other instances might you use small, medium, significant. Do you have a level of what you use when you're not using a statistical reference?‑‑‑Not - I don't think I think in terms of sort of, you know, specific cut‑off points for what, you know, small, medium or large would be. But you're making that judgment when you, you know, do the calculations and estimates of the number.

PN81

Are there more than those three subjective descriptors that you use? So, small, medium, significant, do you perhaps have up to five ranges that you use with different words?‑‑‑Well, significant is a different sort of word. Significant, you know, to - in empirical research, you know, significant, you know, brings in the idea of statistical significance. So I guess what you're talking about is using words to describe the magnitude of change and so, I mean, yes, everyone I think would have probably, you know, different ways of describing sort of magnitudes. But yes, probably my own approach I think, you know, in research I do would be to describe, you know, changes as being small, you know, moderate or large.

PN82

And are they the only three categories that you would place a change into? Small, moderate or large?‑‑‑I'd have to go back and review sort of everything I've written sort of about - in empirical research. But yes, I think in general sort of I'd usually think in terms of sort of describing changes in the quantitative magnitude of changes and variables as being sort of, you know, small, you know, medium size or large.

PN83

All right. So you accept that there's no statistical reference here to your descriptor of using the word "small" to describe the impact to the proposed change of penalty rates on the cost of labour in the retail industry?‑‑‑Sorry, so?

PN84

Do you accept earlier - I'm asking you again - that your descriptor of small is not actually backed by any statistical data that's available as to the change to the cost of labour in the retail industry that would follow by the proposed change to penalty rates as proposed by the SDA?‑‑‑Well, I don't think there's in - when you do - when you're doing empirical analysis it would be impossible, and it doesn't exist, a scale by which you can say "Anything in this range is small. Anything in this range is moderate. Anything in this range is large" because every piece of empirical analysis that you do is a different context and, you know, what constitutes small, sort of, moderate or large can be, you know, very different. So when you do something like this and use the word small or moderate you're thinking about the particular context and you're drawing on your understanding of that context to decide what would constitute, you know, small, medium, moderate or large.

*** JEFFREY IAN BORLAND XXN MR WHEELAHAN

PN85

And so the context within which you were asked to provide an opinion that's set out, isn't it, and you've annexed it to your report? There's a letter of instruction from A J Macken & Co and if you turn to page 5 of that report. Do you have that in front of you? Sorry, that letter of instruction. Do you have that, Professor?‑‑‑Yes.

PN86

So you'll see the scope of opinion and there is set out four assumptions upon which you are to use to then draw your opinion that the change would be relatively small. That's correct, isn't it?‑‑‑Well, I think that context - the context here is broader than just what's on page 5. The context is me being asked to give - you know, earlier on in the letter being asked to give an opinion on the - of the likely consequences of the proposed changes on the cost of labour and on - and the aggregate impact of those changes on employment. That's a really important part of the context as well.

PN87

Yes, I understand and I don't want to mislead you. The preceding page at paragraph 4 sets out three questions. But my question to you, because you've talked about "relatively small" being in context of the scope of what you were asked. The scope is set out there at page 5 so your opinion was to be drawn from these four proposed assumptions. That's right, isn't it?‑‑‑Well, that - those are - that specific sort of - my understanding is that's specific information that I was told to use and rely on, but that's not exclusively sort of where my opinion comes from. I mean that information is, you know, one, you know, specific piece of information which I was told that I should, you know, I guess use that in making assumptions about that part of the analysis I was doing to which that was relevant. But, you know, what that scope part, if you think about for example the formula that I come up with to estimate the cost of labour, that information which is in that scope, that's just you know one - if you want to take it in parts that's one-third of that formula, sort of. So there's - it's - what's written there in scope, well at least what you're referring to in terms of the - you know, the A, B, C, D, that - I relied on that to - as a reference point in formulating one part of the - well, I used - the formula that I used has three parts. That information which is there on page 5 I relied on for formulating one of those three parts of the formula.

PN88

All right. So as I understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong, you have made up your own formula to answer the questions asked of you and one-third of that formula relies on what was provided to you in the letter of instruction under "Scope of opinion" at page 5, these four scenarios. Is that right?‑‑‑Yes, partly relies on that.

*** JEFFREY IAN BORLAND XXN MR WHEELAHAN

PN89

Yes, and then it's correct that you have then taken it upon yourself to make other assumptions, at least two levels adding to the formula. Is that right?‑‑‑That's correct. Let me just say one - go back to one thing you just said, the last question. You said I made up the formula. The formula is the formula, sort of. Like there's only - there's - you can debate about the numbers that have been used in the formula but there's only one mathematical expression to get to the correct, you know, value of the average change in weekly labour costs that would arise because of this change in penalty rates. So the formula is the formula. What I have made assumptions about is the numbers to put into that formula.

PN90

So when you looked at the - you're looking at the letter of instruction and a pattern of hours, when you decided to add a layer of assumptions of further hours you didn't go back to your instructors and tell them that you were going to make further assumptions about trading patterns beyond the scope that was set out in the letter of instruction, did you?‑‑‑I didn't go - sorry?

PN91

I'll put it again. The letter of instruction sets out patterns of hours. You've said that was the one part of a three part formula that you've devised. Correct?‑‑‑Yes, that's right.

PN92

A second part is you've made assumptions about let's call it the A, B, C, D, about what the trading hours over the course of a week of these particular supermarket A, B and so forth, A, B, C, D, haven't you?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN93

Correct, and when you made those further assumptions about trading hours you didn't go back to your instructors and say "Well, I'm going to use this scope but add further trading hours in the course of my opinion"?‑‑‑Well, my understanding was that that was part of them asking me to provide an expert opinion in this matter that there's particular formula which you have to use to arrive at the change in labour costs, weekly labour costs, because of the proposed change in penalty rates. They'd provided me with the information that there was sort of four types of businesses where they thought these changes in rates would apply to and then it was up to me to draw on my knowledge of available data sources and to construct assumptions that would be a reasonable way of getting to an estimate of what the effect on labour costs would be.

PN94

JUSTICE ROSS: Mr Wheelahan, I think it would be more helpful if you identify in the report where there are the additional assumptions because you've referred to A, B, C and D but the report actually refers to those as being the ones reflected in the letter of instruction.

PN95

MR WHEELAHAN: Yes. Yes, I will go to that. I'm just laying the foundation.

PN96

JUSTICE ROSS: Sure.

*** JEFFREY IAN BORLAND XXN MR WHEELAHAN

PN97

MR WHEELAHAN: In formulating - sorry, I shouldn't use in full matter. In devising your formula in your report, and this is at page four, you've got the heading Intuition for Measure. Can you explain what intuition for measure means?‑‑‑Sure. So in doing this exercise, as I've explained, I knew that there is basically only one formula that you can apply to get to the right answer, which is that you need to multiply together, to get to the change in labour costs, you need to multiply together the share of hours to which the proposed increases in penalty rates, the share of weekly hours to which the proposed increase in penalty rates, will apply that are worked by casual workers, you need to multiply that by what the percentage change in penalty rates is. So - and that's a formula which you can - which, as I've done, express sort of mathematically and that's the most precise way to do it. But in my statement, I wanted to build up to that so the course I took is, which I sort of - which I explain, is that I begin with a non-technical word description of the formula and then - so that's in - that's 2.3, and I then, in 2.4, explain why it makes sense that each of those bits has to be in the formula. So for example, if the other things equal, if the proportion of hours worked in the week where - to which the change in penalty rates will, proposed change in penalty rates will, apply then that's going to make the cost of the penalty rate increase higher because there's more - a bigger share of the hours in the week being worked at those hours when penalty rates are going to increase so that will make it higher. If a bigger share of those hours are worked by casual employees, who are the workers to whom this decision - this proposed change in penalty rates would apply, then that makes the change bigger. If the change in penalty rates, if that's bigger, then that will also make the change in labour costs bigger so in 2.4, that's what I call giving intuition. I'm giving a word based description or explanation for why it makes sense that each of these components would be in the formula, so I didn't want to just dump the mathematical formula there and say "Look, this is what I've done". I've tried to build up to it so the sub-section Intuition for Research, I describe the three components of the formula in words and I try to give an explanation in 2.4 for why it makes sense that those bits are in the formula. For example, we've got these hours where it's proposed that penalty rates would be adjusted but only for casual employees so the bigger proportion of those hours that are worked by casual employees, that's going to increase the size, so that's what I'm trying to explain. Then on page five in the next sub-section, Example, I'm still trying to build up. What I do there is I say instead of just jumping to the sort of seven day example, let's just do a simple numerical example, completely made up sort of, two - let's assume there's two days of the week sort of, and I'm going to make up some assumptions about the three components of the formula and I'm going to show you how the formula would work if there was only two days of the week and if there was those - if there's the numbers that I assume. Then in the next section, General Formula for Estimating Maximum Impact, that's when I express the formula mathematically and explain how I'm going to go about applying that formula to derive what I refer to as the maximum impossible impact on the weekly total cost of labour. So intuition, I - to come back to your question, after sort of having hopefully given general background, by intuition, all I mean is trying to explain in words why it makes sense that that is the right formula to use.

*** JEFFREY IAN BORLAND XXN MR WHEELAHAN

PN98

All right. Intuition for measure, this is not a scientific phrase, it's a phrase that you've invented, is it?‑‑‑Well I don't think I invented the word intuition but all I mean is that I'm giving intuition for why these three elements are in the formula.

PN99

Yes. My question though, maybe I'll just put it - when one reads economic literature, one will not find without any great difficulty or have you been able to find the phrase intuition for measure being used in any type of data or statistical or economic analysis?‑‑‑Economists mainly use the word intuition in exactly the context that I've used it here, that economists, as you might know, I guess, when they're expressing sort of theories or formulas often and increasingly, some of us think unfortunately, but use mathematics to do that sort of, so it would be really common in presenting sort of a theoretical model or a statistical formula for an economist to say "Look, this is the equation. This is the sort of result you come up with mathematically. What's the intuition for that? Why is it that with this model of the economy that I've constructed, I churn through the mathematics and this is what the maths tell me, why does it kind of - why does it make sense? What's the intuition for why we would have ended up with sort of this result if we assume that the economy is the way we've presented in a particular mathematical model?". Like, I would do that many, many times teaching sort of like in any subject I teach. Like you - when you start out in introductory in micro-economics and you say "Look, here's a model of demand and supply. Look, if we think there's an increase in demand, we shift the demand, cut it out, we get to a new equilibrium" and you say to the students "What's the intuition for this? Why is this happening?". So intuition is just an expression that economists use. They're trying to go behind the formal mathematics and give sort of a description in words of what ‑ of a model or a formula or results that are expressed in a technical way.

PN100

Right. I think it's fair to say intuition for measure is your explanation of the formula that you've arrived at, correct?‑‑‑Yes.

*** JEFFREY IAN BORLAND XXN MR WHEELAHAN

PN101

B, I think you said that in arriving at your formula, pardon me, you had to make up assumptions of your own?‑‑‑I've made assumptions. I think make up isn't a fair representation. I've - so the issue in doing the exercise of putting numbers to the formula is that essentially the formula reduces down to two elements. I mean in the way I've expressed it here, yes, I divide it up into three to kind of make it clearer what I was doing but essentially it comes down to two elements. It comes down to multiplying the percentage change in the cost of labour due to the change in penalty rates to those hours to which penalty rates apply, multiplying that by the percentage of hours in a week which are worked by casual employees in those hours to which the proposed increase in penalty rates would apply. The problem is there is no data that I'm aware of, no publicly available data, that tells that second bit of information. We don't have such detailed data on the times at which people work to be able to tell us that, look, you know, if we're talking about the hours from 5 till 8 week day and Saturdays that there's this many hours worked at that time and this percentage of them are worked by casual employees. So we don't know exactly that. But we do know information - we do know information which allows us to think about what reasonable values of that amount would be. So for example, we know that in the retail industry, if you look at the four quarters, 2017/18, for which data is available, 25.1 per cent of hours were worked - 25.1 per cent of hours were worked by casual employees of the total hours that are worked. That tells us that - because we're talking about here the case of just a subset of hours, like Saturdays and week nights, it is a physical impossibility that the hours that casual employees work on week nights and on Saturdays would be more than 25.1 per cent, because that's the hours that they work across the whole - the percentage of the hours they work across the whole of every week. So we know that there's an upper bound on the hours that casuals could possibly work at the time of the proposed increase in penalty rates. It's 25 per cent. So when you say "made up numbers," my numbers are assumptions, but they've been crafted with reference to that figure. For example, if you look at what has been described as scenario A, the supermarket A, if you multiply the two components I've assumed there, 0.2 of share of hours week nights, 0.2 share of hours on Saturdays, multiply that by the upper bound measure of the share of casuals or 0.6, you get 0.4 x 0.6, which is 24. In other words, my upper bound measure is basically assuming that casuals in the retail industry, that the only hours they're working are week nights and Saturdays. They're not working on Sundays; they're not working at other times. So I've made assumptions that those assumptions are crafted with respect to information that we do know. I've had to make assumptions, because there's no data source that tells me this is actually the percentage of hours that casuals work, divided by the whole hours in the retail industry on week nights and Saturdays. I don't know that, but I do know the total - the percentage of hours casuals work across the whole week, and I know that the hours they work on week nights and Saturdays can't be bigger than the hours they work across the whole week, which is 25 per cent. So I've carefully chosen the numbers I use to be consistent with what information we do have.

PN102

It's correct, isn't it, that you haven't been able to have regard to actual businesses or rosters of actual casual employees working?‑‑‑But ABS data is derived from actual businesses, isn't it? Like, the number I just gave you of 25.1 per cent, you know, comes from - you know, that's an ABS statistical source.

PN103

Yet you haven't been able to have regard to actual store‑based retail hours worked by casual employees, have you?‑‑‑I was asked to give an opinion on the aggregate employment consequences of this proposed change, so in my view, I guess my understanding was that - - -

*** JEFFREY IAN BORLAND XXN MR WHEELAHAN

PN104

It's not a criticism, Professor Borland. I think your answer is no, that you didn't?‑‑‑I didn't because it wasn't relevant based on the opinion that I was asked to give, which was the aggregate employment consequences, you know. Clearly, if the aggregate employment data say that 25.1 per cent of hours worked in the retail industry are worked by casuals, that's not saying that every type of store in the retail industry casuals made up 25 per cent. There's going to be dispersion around that. There's going to be some retail businesses where there's more than 25 per cent of hours worked by casuals. But that means that there are other businesses where there's less than 25 per cent of hours worked by casuals. How much dispersion there is - yes, that's correct; that's information I didn't have access to.

PN105

I'll just put some propositions as facts to you, and they're not criticisms - they're just facts for you to accept or not accept. So in preparing your report, you don't know precise information about what proportion of casual employees are covered by awards, do you?‑‑‑Well I say that in my report, that we don't have that information available.

PN106

All right?‑‑‑But I think it's important to say that then that's not something that I adjust. I note in my report that if you believe that that percentage isn't 100 per cent, then it's going to lower any of the numbers which I've calculated in the report.

PN107

My second question is your report is only based on all employees being adults, is that correct?‑‑‑That's right.

PN108

And offsetting costs are not taken into account in arriving at your conclusions on this topic?‑‑‑That's right. Those are - yes, I note in I guess it's sections 2.10 to 2.15 that while I believe it's reasonable to think that based on what data are available that if you did have data on those elements that they would cause you to basically - the estimates I've made of costs would become a fraction of those estimates. I mean, I think it's important to say, I guess I feel like I was taking a deliberately conservative approach, because, for example, you know, I didn't have information on the percentage of, you know, casuals in retail who were on awards. I chose not to discount the estimates that I come up with. But you know, again, we know that, like, 35.5 per cent of workers in retail industry sort of had award only in May 2016. So we know, you know, you would have to - for 100 per cent of casual employees to be on awards, it would have to be the case in that industry that every casual employee basically was on an award, and every other employee wasn't on an award. If you want to - - -

PN109

If I may stop you, my question was about offsetting costs and that that was not taken into account - and I think you've accepted that. I'll move on to - and this is the part - - -

PN110

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: When you say "offsetting costs," do you mean offsets that would increase or decrease the cost of the employer?

*** JEFFREY IAN BORLAND XXN MR WHEELAHAN

PN111

MR WHEELAHAN: This is at 2.15 of the report. I'm just putting to the witness these are matters that he himself says that he does not take into account.

PN112

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: What are they?

PN113

MR WHEELAHAN: Pardon? Professor Borland, what are offsetting costs?‑‑‑Offsetting costs - you know, that's the idea, for example, that if you pay workers higher wage rates, then for example, it might reduce labour turnover, and by doing that you're reducing sort of hiring/training costs for firms and that that could be sort of an offset, which means that if you, say, increase penalty rates or minimum wage by 10 per cent then in fact labour costs sort of only go up by 8 per cent overall because you've got this offset of, like, you know, if you think about, you know, what's the cost to the business over a year? Well, rather than the, you know, workers leaving every six months they stay for a year because they're being paid higher wages.

PN114

JUSTICE ROSS: So are you using offsetting costs in the sense that they're factors that may operate to reduce the cost impact of the increase in penalty rates that's sought?‑‑‑That's correct. That's correct.

PN115

MR WHEELAHAN: I might move, if the Commission pleases, the table that - this is paragraphs 2.19 and paragraph 2.20 and I'll ask these questions in the inquisitorial sense for the benefit of the Commission.

PN116

When one reads the table here and you've got the scenarios A and B and that's taken from paragraph 2.16, supermarket A and convenience stores and supermarket B, and you've added layers of assumptions in paragraph 2.19 with different trading hours for A and B yet you come up with the same percentages. You'll see there 0.2, 0.2 on total weekly hours accounted for by hours for which penalty rates apply and I just wonder if you can explain how you arrive at those figures being the same given the differing underlying assumptions as to hours that you've made for those businesses beyond the instructions given to you?‑‑‑Well, as I said before I guess in making the assumptions, you know, in 2.20 and on the next page 2.23 and 2.24, you know, I was guided by a sense of what I knew that the overall share of hours worked by casual employees was in the retail industry which, you know, was - in the best recent information is 25 per cent. So I wanted to choose numbers so that based on the - so that what I was calling the upper bound basically meant that you were assuming that, sort of, all the hours worked by casuals were worked, you know, in the hours where there would be the change in penalty rates.

*** JEFFREY IAN BORLAND XXN MR WHEELAHAN

PN117

Yes, my question is probably more analytical than that. if you look at paragraph 2.19 for example midway down you've set out the hours that you've assumed that that supermarket A is open, you know, for example 7 am to six, Sunday seven to 11 and supermarket B different hours at eight to six and Sundays different hours at eight to 6 pm, and on one view it's difficult to comprehend from those assumptions how your table at 2.2 then comes up for precisely the same weightings of 20 per cent. Do you see in the first two columns A and B?‑‑‑Yes.

PN118

Now it might be that the answer is that there's a formula not in this report that you can provide to the Commission to assist, but on its face in the inquisitorial sense are you able to explain how the same percentage is arrived at despite the differing assumptions as to trading hours?‑‑‑As I said, yes, so there's no formula behind it. Those were, you know, my estimates informed by what I knew, that the total share of hours worked was by casual employees in the retail sector because - - -

PN119

JUSTICE ROSS: No but, sorry, but these are the shares of hours worked at particular times of the day or week?‑‑‑That's right, to which - - -

PN120

So I think the point - - -?‑‑‑To which the proposed changes in penalty rates would apply.

PN121

But I think the point is being made that for example on scenario A for weeknights you assume 6 pm to 11 pm. That's five hours in the weeknight penalty range. Then for scenario B for weeknights it's only three hours, 6 pm to 9 pm, so it's a smaller range of hours in the evening penalty range. But when you go to your table for the weeknight share of total weekly hours for scenario A and B you come up with the same number, despite them having quite different proportions of hours or different hours worked on weeknights. So I think that's the - you're being asked to explain how those different hours produce the same proportion?‑‑‑Well, I mean during the - so Saturday - - -

PN122

I mean if you just stay with weeknights where it's clear you've assumed different hours but you've come up with the same number?‑‑‑So I mean the - so the information that's in 2.19 is the information on the other - is assumptions I'm making about other hours. Yes, I guess for both those businesses in general my thinking is that, you know, you've got a, you know, relatively, you know, large share of business, point 2, point 2, concentrated on weeknights and Saturdays.

*** JEFFREY IAN BORLAND XXN MR WHEELAHAN

PN123

But isn't it - - -?‑‑‑I guess, you know, what I've tried to emphasise is that I - you know, as I've accepted I didn't have available information on these exact hours for these types of businesses. But in the end, you know, what really matters is the plausibility of these numbers judged against, you know, the ABS data that we have on the share of hours, you know, worked by casual employees across the whole of the week. We know that casual employees in the retail industry account for 25.1 per cent of the hours. If you look at what I've assumed here, point 2 on weeknights, point 2 on Saturdays, that's point 4 of the whole week and you then multiply that by the idea that 60 per cent of those hours would have been worked by casual employees, which is on 2.24 on the next page, you come up with basically 24 per cent of hours. So - - -

PN124

No, I follow that but what I don't follow is for scenarios A and B you've point 2 for weeknights, right? But scenario A operates during the week from 7 am to 6 pm and scenario B operates from 8 am to 6 pm?‑‑‑Well, you could if you wanted - - -

PN125

In other words how do you get the same share on weeknights when they traded different hours?‑‑‑Well, that was my assumption. But what I'd say is, you know, you can change those - you can change the numbers, you can make it point - you know, make one of the point 2s point 25, make one of the point 2s point 15, the fact is that even if you change those numbers a little bit because you think the hours are slightly wrong, the really important point is that my maximum estimate is assuming that casual workers are working all of their hours at these hours where it's proposed that penalty rates will apply. Like, the point 2 and the point 2 multiplied by the point 6 means that we're assuming that in what I call the maximum estimate, we're assuming that 24 per cent of the hours are being worked at those hours where it's proposed that penalty rates will be increased on weeknights and Saturdays. But we know that it's only 25 per cent of the whole week so, yes, you could change one of the numbers to point 15, change one of them to point 25, it's not really going to change very much the idea that what I'm assuming here is very close to assuming that casuals aren't working on Sundays, they're not working on weekdays before these hours. So the main point is that, you know, what - is that in constructing these numbers I've really, you know, tried to be, you know, very - well, conservative in a sense because my upper bound, you know, you have to believe that casual workers aren't working on Sundays and aren't working on weekdays for that number to be the right number.

PN126

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: In the table in 2.2 where you talk about shares of total weekly hours, I assume weekly hours isn't referring to trading hours. It refers to weekly hours of labour?‑‑‑Total weekly hours worked. So, yes, out of the total weekly hours that are worked by all employees, how much were worked on week nights, how much were worked on Saturdays.

PN127

To do that precisely, you'd need to know not only the trading hours but the number of employees rostered at particular times?‑‑‑Exactly, exactly, exactly, yes.

*** JEFFREY IAN BORLAND XXN MR WHEELAHAN

PN128

MR WHEELAHAN: With that, just following up that last answer, at paragraph 2.29, you then draw conclusions in very precise percentage terms about a lower and upper estimate of the impact on weekly total cost of labour. That precise table though relies on assumptions that you've set out in paragraph 2.9, is that correct?‑‑‑2.9?

PN129

Sorry, 2.19 and the table in 2.20?‑‑‑That's right.

PN130

You talked about the three layers of assumptions that you've made to come to percentage terms or one might review this as some sort of statistical analysis based on your intuitive formula, is that right?‑‑‑No, no. The formula's not intuitive. The formula is the formula.

PN131

All right, I withdraw that?‑‑‑I was giving intuition for why the formula is - for the mathematics of the formula.

PN132

Intuitive assumptions?‑‑‑No, no, the - there's a formula which mathematically you need to use to calculate the change in labour costs. I give intuition for why that formula is the appropriate way then you make assumptions about the numbers that you're going to use to apply that formula to estimate the labour cost.

*** JEFFREY IAN BORLAND XXN MR WHEELAHAN

PN133

Can I suggest that in arriving at this conclusion really you've had to insert too many assumptions beyond the letter of instruction provided to you and as the Vice President noted, you don't have actual rosters, you don't know when people actually worked and that that affects the reliability of your conclusions on this topic?‑‑‑Sorry, I didn't know if you'd finished the - so, yes, two responses. To the first part, I haven't exceeded what I was asked to do in doing that because I was asked to give an opinion on the impact on aggregate employment of the proposed changes in penalty rates. To give an opinion on the proposed - on the impact of the proposed changes on employment, you need two things. You need an estimate of the change in wages and you need to think what the elasticity of employment's going to be with respect to the change in wages, so to give an opinion, I had to come up with estimate of the change in labour costs. The only way to get that estimate of labour costs is to apply the formula which I've used. So if I was going to fulfil my brief of being asked to give an opinion on that, then I had to basically apply that formula and that involved making plausible assumptions about what the change in labour costs would - sorry, what those elements would be. In terms of the idea of making too many assumptions, as I said, there's the three elements to the formula. One of the elements of the formula, the change in penalty rates we know. The other two elements, or one element if you want to compress it together, which is the percentage of hours worked by casual employees at the hours on weeknights and Saturdays at which penalty rates will be changed, yes, that's the thing that we don't know. But we do know, and I keep saying this, we do know that it can't be more than 20 - we can't be more than 25.1 percent because the ABS data tell us that casual employees in the retail industry work 25 percent of total hours. So you can critique this assumption or that assumption but the thing that I think you have to keep coming back to is the fact that the assumption I've made to derive my upper bound maximum estimate is a - whether you like the particular way I've got there or not, the fact is that the assumption I've made to get to my upper bound maximum estimate is an assumption that casuals are working all their hours on weeknights and Saturdays. There are no casuals working on Sundays, no casuals working during the weekdays. Whether you like the way that I get there or not, I've deliberately taken an approach of trying to be, in a sense, as conservative or as generous as I can on saying look, I don't really know exactly sort of when the casuals are working so because that's a potential weakness in anything I say, I'm going to be really, really liberal. I'm going to assume an upper bound which says that look, casuals are not working on Sundays, they're not working on weekdays. The only times they're working are the times at which penalty rates are going to be increased. So because of the lack of information I had, I've deliberately crafted my assumptions to be - so that the upper bound at least is kind of well I would say ridiculously conservative like was the idea that casuals aren't working on Sundays, for example.

PN134

Just concluding on this topic that you've described, the change is relatively small, I just want to put some assumptions to you of an actual business and you don't need to go to the statement but if the Bench wants a reference, it's the statement of Joanne Elson that I'm drawing these facts from. This is a supermarket, an IGA supermarket in South Australia, so 41 employees, 30 of which are casual. If one assumes that if the proposed increase to weekday evening and Saturday penalty rates was to be implemented, based on working the same rostered hours as at the 2017/18 financial year, the evidence for that particular supermarket is that that would be an additional approximately $885 per week on labour costs which gives an annual additional amount of $46,000 per year. For a business with 30 casual employees and an additional $46,000 labour cost imposed on those assumptions, is that something that you would describe as moderate, relatively small or large for that business?‑‑‑Well I can't give an opinion on, I guess, parts of a statement that you're telling me about. I guess, in my statement I do what I was asked to do which is to give an opinion on the average economy-wide consequences of the change in penalty rates and in that context, and to assess the consequences for the changes in employment - - -

PN135

Yes, I understand that?‑‑‑and in that context, I judge the changes in wages that I calculated for the exercise that I was asked to do as being relatively small.

PN136

I'm asking you - - -

PN137

JUSTICE ROSS: Does it appear anywhere in the statement what the total - - -

PN138

MR WHEELAHAN: Pardon?

*** JEFFREY IAN BORLAND XXN MR WHEELAHAN

PN139

JUSTICE ROSS: Does it appear anywhere in Ms Elson's statement what the total labour costs are? Do you know what $46,000 is a proportion of, in other words?

PN140

MR WHEELAHAN: Yes, so at paragraph 29 onwards, the breakdown of each of the figures, so - - -

PN141

JUSTICE ROSS: No, that's for Saturday. That's for weeknights and for Saturdays.

PN142

MR WHEELAHAN: Yes, yes, it - - -

PN143

JUSTICE ROSS: I'm asking the total.

PN144

MR WHEELAHAN: Yes, it needs to be added, the - - -

PN145

JUSTICE ROSS: No, no, adding it won't - one is for weekday evenings and the other is for Saturday. They're not just open on weekday evenings and Saturdays.

PN146

MR WHEELAHAN: Yes, I'll re-frame the question.

PN147

JUSTICE ROSS: Well can you answer my question?

PN148

MR WHEELAHAN: I'll just check. I don't think it is, your Honour. So if your Honour is asking the total wage costs of all employees - - -

PN149

JUSTICE ROSS: I was just asking if it was in the statement.

PN150

MR WHEELAHAN: Yes, it's not in the statement.

PN151

JUSTICE ROSS: Because you can understand if it was - and I'm not suggesting that is the case - if it was a business with an annual labour cost bill of $40 million, then $46,000 is not - do you know what I mean? It's all a relative - - -

*** JEFFREY IAN BORLAND XXN MR WHEELAHAN

PN152

MR WHEELAHAN: Yes, I do. That's why what's relative here, it's a business with only 41 employees, of which 30 of the 41 are casual employees, and it goes to the amount of wages and the additional cost upon that business for casual labour per annum if the proposed changes went through, and it's approximately $46,000 a year, and in terms of hours, it would mean if you were to have the same labour spend on the casual hours according to this witness, it would be approximately - you would need to reduce the hours by 2900 hours for those 30 casuals. So making no other change to the business, apart from maintaining the same labour costs for the 30 casual employees, 2900 hours would need to be removed from the roster or actual houred work.

PN153

JUSTICE ROSS: But I'm not sure if you're giving evidence or what - I just asked a simple question.

PN154

MR WHEELAHAN: Well I'm perhaps adopting a - - -

PN155

JUSTICE ROSS: No, that's fine. If you want to ask the witness any questions about that, then go ahead.

PN156

MR WHEELAHAN: Yes. Professor Borland, I did ask you a question about, and you responded in a macro sense, and I accept that you've answered the questions you were asked. Are you able to address any microeconomic questions if I put some assumptions to you about your opinion, as you've heard the discussion between myself and the Bench, about whether, for example, a business with 41 employees - a supermarket, 30 casuals - if the increase in casual rates would mean a loss of 2900 hours per annum, absent any other change, just on cost, is that something that you would describe, as an economist, as small, moderate or large?‑‑‑Well I think I answered the question in those - I answered that specific question, which you'd asked me before, with my last answer, which is that - well let me add to it. I think that - well, first of all, as I said before, you know, there's not enough information sort of in what you're telling me there to form any sort of judgment about small, moderate or large. Secondly, I think, you know, my understanding is that what matters here is aggregate, Australia‑wide impacts of proposed changes in penalty rates on employment. I'm sure that it's possible to go out and find stores where casual labour costs constitute a larger proportion of labour costs or hours worked than the Australia average, but to be fair, then you should also be finding those other stores where casual rates constitute a smaller share of labour hours and labour costs than the Australia average. So I think it's - my view is that if the exercise is to understand the Australia‑wide consequences of a proposed change to penalty rates, then either you look at the aggregate data or you look at a representative sample of businesses, some of which might have casual labour costs which are a larger percentage than the average, some of which have casual labour costs which are a smaller percentage than the average - - -

*** JEFFREY IAN BORLAND XXN MR WHEELAHAN

PN157

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Professor, that aggregate, 25 per cent of hours being worked by casuals, how reliable is that for our purposes in circumstances where we know that a huge proportion of retail employment is locked up in two or three major retailers who operate under enterprise agreements rather than the award? That is, is it possible that - - -?‑‑‑No, the data that I'm quoting there comes from the Labour Force Survey, so that's, like - that's, you know, the Labour Force household survey. So it's not employer‑dependent. If you believe that the Labour Force Survey is kind of a representative survey of people in the workforce, then it should be capturing sort of employees in proportion to the respect in which they're employed in - big supermarkets, smaller supermarkets - it's 25.1 per cent of a representative sample of people who are working in the retail industry.

PN158

It may be representative of the industry, but it may not be representative of employers who actually operate under the award as distinct from enterprise agreements?‑‑‑I see the point. So, okay, so you're saying that amongst the people whose - yes, I'm not sure if I completely - let me just think.

PN159

COMMISSIONER LEE: I might put it another way. I think what the Vice President is saying, it's possible that businesses that operate under the award may employ - well, to go in either direction - they could employ higher proportions of casuals, or they might employ lower proportions of casuals, but either way, the 25 per cent is not a reliable indicator?‑‑‑Okay. I mean, the thing that's important about - - -

PN160

Or it may not be a reliable indicator?‑‑‑Yes. The thing that's important then though to remember is that in my numbers I haven't adjusted at all for the fact that there's only a subset of employees who are on the award. So you're saying, well, look, maybe you need to, you know, push the number up from 25.1 per cent, you know, if it's the percentage who are actually on awards so are going to be affected. But then if you're doing that, I think then you've got to take seriously the idea of adjusting for the percentage who actually are on awards, if you want to do the Australia‑wide - - -

*** JEFFREY IAN BORLAND XXN MR WHEELAHAN

PN161

JUSTICE ROSS: So the aggregate effect might cut both ways?‑‑‑Yes, that's right. I understand the point that you're making, which is you're saying, look, what we're really interested in is we believe, you know, a decision to increase penalty rates could just affect business, or employees who are on awards, and it could be that amongst employees who are on awards more than 25.1 per cent of them are casual - is that - that's what you're - - -? Okay. So yes, so I understand that, and that's possible. We don't have the data to say that, but then what I say is well if you're going to introduce the idea of awards sort of and non‑awards then you can say well the percentage is more than 25 per cent for awards; we know then that the percentage must be, you know, less than 25 per cent for non‑awards, and then I think you've got to take really seriously the idea that if you're going to calculate the effect on the overall cost of labour, it has to be, look, there's 50 per cent who are on awards, and out of that 50 per cent, you know, 40 per cent are casual, or something like that, and their wages are going to be adjusted, but we've got this other 50 per cent who aren't on awards and their wages aren't going to be adjusted at all. There's no cost of labour, sort of. So I think, as the President said, I think if you do want to go that path of thinking more seriously about the idea of the casual proportion being different for awards, then I think you've also got to take seriously the idea that then there's a whole percentage who aren't on awards for whom the impact is going to be zero, which is something that I haven't factored in.

PN162

I suppose we don't know, do we? We don't know the proportion of hours worked by casuals in the award‑reliant versus non‑award reliant sectors?‑‑‑Yes, in retail - that's right. Otherwise I would have adjusted, like I have the paragraph where I talk about what data we do know - otherwise I would have adjusted.

PN163

MR WHEELAHAN: Professor Borland, I'll move on to the second part of your report and your conclusion the proposed changes to penalty rates on the weekly total cost of labour, any impact on total employment, will be small, and you've said in your report that that is total hours of work. Do you accept, do you, that there may well though be many businesses where casual employees who are only working a small number of hours may lose their employment entirely if that business was to transfer to, I think as you put it, the option of permanent or part‑time employees?‑‑‑Well, but if there's - if - I mean if there's only a small effect on total hours and if casuals are transitioning to the - as you just said to permanent, then there's going to be very - there might be a decrease in casual but that would be largely offset by an increase in permanent.

PN164

Yes. Did you consider though the impact upon persons employed as opposed to number of hours, total hours of work?‑‑‑Well, no, I thought in terms of hours worked because I think that's usually thought of as sort of, you know, the most robust way to think of employment. Because you know, you can cut up a given number of hours sort of into any different number of employees, you know, whereas total hours worked is the, you know, the basic measure that most labour economists would use to think about the volume of work taking place in an industry or the economy.

*** JEFFREY IAN BORLAND XXN MR WHEELAHAN

PN165

The third part of your report you were just simply asked to express opinions about part of what the Productivity Commission has put on the record. You've made comment at paragraph 4.9 about assumptions dealing with a causal relation about the availability of casual jobs to young and disadvantaged workers obtaining employment. Can you just elaborate what you mean there?‑‑‑Well, so I guess it's a point which is that when data - when variables are correlated it doesn't necessarily mean that you can draw a conclusion that sort of one of those variables is causing changes in the other variable. So the Productivity Commission in their report have said "Look, in the retail sector there's a relatively high proportion of young people employed in casual jobs and also people who you might think of as disadvantaged". For example the way I operationalise that in the report is people who have been unemployed say in the last 12 months. I think implicit in the Productivity Commission's expression of concern is the idea that basically what's going on there is that the retail sector is creating casual jobs and then it's young workers, disadvantaged workers who are moving into those casual jobs in relatively larger numbers than they would into other types of jobs. I guess amongst other, you know, concerns I raise with the Productivity Commission statement in 4.9, what I'm saying specifically is that there's an alternative explanation for that correlation which is that as you'll know in 4.10 I go on to describe, you know, some reasons that casual employment is regarded as problematic. An alternative interpretation of the correlation between casual employment in the retail industry and young and disadvantaged workers being employed there is that young and disadvantaged workers are getting an opportunity to work in the retail sector and because of their lack of bargaining power they are being offered casual jobs in that sector rather than permanent type jobs. So you can't just infer from the fact that the Productivity Commission, you know, correctly as I say, you know, says that there's this correlation between the retail sector, casual jobs, young and disadvantaged people working there. That doesn't mean that what - the Productivity Commission provides no evidence to support the idea that what's happening is retail is creating casual jobs and then it just happens that it's young and disadvantaged people moving into those jobs. What I'm saying is that based on the Productivity Commission, what they present, which is just data on the fact that these two things are correlated, an equally possible explanation is that, you know, young and disadvantaged workers, like disadvantaged in the sense of having been unemployed, have low bargaining power. You know, when they move into employment in that sector they're being offered, you know, casual employment because of their relatively low bargaining power.

PN166

Professor Borland, you referred there to your statements in paragraph 4.10. Should the Commission take it that as a matter of policy that by the inclusion there that you're putting to the Commission that permanent and part‑time employment is in fact to be preferred over casual employment?‑‑‑No. In that statement what I'm doing is I'm putting it to the Commission that I think there are some potential problems with the statement of the Productivity Commission in their workplace report. That's what I was asked to do and so that's all I'm doing there. I'm offering judgment, commentary on the Productivity Commission's opinion and it's really just restricted to the statements they make about casual employment.

*** JEFFREY IAN BORLAND XXN MR WHEELAHAN

PN167

And in conclusion, at paragraph 4.11 you make comments about what the Productivity Commission says are the unfortunate consequences for workers needing flexible work arrangements. Do you accept the proposition that casual employment in the retail sector generally provides the employee flexible working arrangements by virtue of being able to accept or reject rosters and the times that they work?‑‑‑No. I think what - I mean I think what I say in the report is that when you look at that - the most recent characteristics of employment data, that there doesn't seem to be any difference between permanent employees and casual employees in terms of an agreement with their employer to work flexible hours. So I guess I'm questioning that whether there's even a - like a correlation in the data in that aspect of the Productivity Commission's statement.

PN168

So just to follow that, it's not so much the difference. My question was do you accept as a principle that the class of casual employment provides flexibility for employees?‑‑‑That's - well, as far as I believe I was asked to comment on that with respect to the Productivity Commission report, I'm disagreeing with that in my statement. I'm saying that the characteristics of the employment survey says that there's no more evidence that casual employment provides a scope for flexibility than permanent employees, according to the most recent characteristics of employment data.

PN169

If the Commission pleases, I note the time and it's now 11 and I have no further questions.

PN170

JUSTICE ROSS: Any re‑examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR FRIEND [10.59 AM]

PN171

MR FRIEND: Just a couple of small matters, if the Commission pleases.

PN172

Professor Borland, you were asked earlier on about some assumptions you made firstly that all employees were award covered. If all casual employees aren't all award covered, what happens to your assessment of the cost?‑‑‑Well, then subject of course to what we discussed before about the percentage of award employees who are casual being higher, but suppose we put that to one side then you would basically just divide the numbers in my report by whatever fraction are. So - - -

PN173

And would it go up or down?‑‑‑It would go down. So for example like if you believed that the aggregate number of 34 per cent I think was the number which - if you believed that number applied to the casual employees in the retail sector, then every number which is in table 3 would be divided by three because I haven't made any allowance sort of for award employees so those numbers in table three are based on the assumption that basically every casual employee would be getting the penalty rate increase. So if it's only a third of the casual employees, every number - - -

PN174

I understand, could I move onto the next question?‑‑‑Sure.

*** JEFFREY IAN BORLAND RXN MR FRIEND

PN175

You've made an assumption that all employees, all casual employees are adults. If they're not all adults, if some of them are juniors and on junior rates, does it go up or down?‑‑‑It goes down in a similar way.

PN176

Down, thank you. In paragraph 2.15, you've mentioned these offsetting effects. I think that a term was introduced into the questioning of offsetting costs and perhaps offsetting effects is a better description of what you're talking about. Have you taken any account of offsetting effects, as you've suggested might exist there?‑‑‑I haven't, I haven't.

PN177

If there were any offsetting effects, would it go up or down?‑‑‑It would go down.

PN178

Thank you?‑‑‑I think it's important - I mean, to give a sense of how regard the sort of relative importance of those factors, I think clearly the most important factor in terms of adjusting the numbers would be the award ‑ non‑award issue because you've got - we know that there's 30 something percent, sort of, on awards and if you wanted to take strictly the idea that it's only award employees who are going to get the increases, then obviously that's a huge adjustment factor. The juniors/adults, because there's sort of - I think it's, from memory, was it about 15 percent aged 15 to 19, that's obviously a less important adjustment factor in the offsetting costs, again. I think of those factors, the really important one is the award one, clearly, to give you a sense of the relative importance.

PN179

Can I now take you - I just want to ask you a little bit about table two which is the one under 2.20. If I take you first back to paragraph 2.16. There you set out the assumptions of trading patterns for times when casual loading are payable that are relevant to this application, weekday evenings and Saturdays. You make an additional assumption in 2.19 and in the fifth line down at the end of the line there you say "In addition to the information in those scenarios, I assume the following opening hours". Do I understand this correctly, those are the other opening hours that you have assumed to give you the total opening hours of the relevant stores?‑‑‑That's right.

PN180

All right. The table two, shares of total weekly hours, when you say total weekly hours, you mean there the total weekly hours that are those set out in 2.19, that additional assumption, and in the previous paragraph, the casual loading hours?‑‑‑That's right. For example, when in scenario A weeknights, point 2, what that's assuming is that 20 percent of the total hours worked by - worked in this business over the whole week are worked on weeknights.

PN181

Scenario A, 20 percent of the total hours are worked on weeknights by casuals or altogether?‑‑‑That's altogether in the report.

*** JEFFREY IAN BORLAND RXN MR FRIEND

PN182

Altogether?‑‑‑That's then multiplied by the next part of it, which is in 2.23 and 2.24, the percentage of casuals working at those times to get the combination, which is the percentage of hours in the week to which the proposed increase in penalty rates would apply that are worked by casuals. You multiply those two things together.

PN183

Thank you. I've nothing further, if the Commission pleases.

PN184

JUSTICE ROSS: Thank you for your evidence, Professor Borland, you're excused.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [11.04 AM]

PN185

JUSTICE ROSS: Might take a short break.

SHORT ADJOURNMENT [11.04 AM]

RESUMED [11.13 AM]

PN186

MR WHEELAHAN: Thank you, your Honour. I call Dr Sean Sands.

PN187

THE ASSOCIATE: Please state your full name and address.

PN188

MR SANDS: Sean James Sands, (address supplied).

<SEAN JAMES SANDS, AFFIRMED [11.13 AM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR WHEELAHAN [11.13 AM]

PN189

MR WHEELAHAN: Dr Sands, please state your full name?‑‑‑Sean James Sands.

PN190

Your working address?‑‑‑Swinburne University.

PN191

Your occupation?‑‑‑Associate professor marketing.

PN192

You prepared a report for the purposes of these proceedings. Do you have a copy of that with you?‑‑‑I do.

PN193

That's been filed and served on my learned friend. Are there changes that you wish to make to the actual report?‑‑‑There is one typo I picked up.

*** SEAN JAMES SANDS XN MR WHEELAHAN

PN194

Yes?‑‑‑For a figure on page number five, there's an extra zero in a number 12869001. One of those zeroes should be deleted. It's the number of employees in the retail industry.

PN195

All right, so under - - -

PN196

JUSTICE ROSS: Sorry, whereabouts is that?‑‑‑Page five, halfway down the page, under section 121, halfway down the paragraph.

PN197

MR WHEELAHAN: People employed in retail being one, you obviously mean about 1286 million - - -?‑‑‑1.2 million, correct, yes.

PN198

There's an extra zero in there?‑‑‑There is.

PN199

You've included your curriculum vitae as an attachment to that report?‑‑‑Correct, page 48.

PN200

That sets out the areas in which you're an expert?‑‑‑Yes.

PN201

Is this report based on not only your opinions as an expert but the facts as recited in your report?‑‑‑Correct, yes it is.

PN202

I tender that report, if your Honour pleases.

PN203

JUSTICE ROSS: Exhibit ARA1.

EXHIBIT #ARA1 REPORT OF PROFESSOR SEAN JAMES SANDS

PN204

MR WHEELAHAN: In addition, Dr Sands, do you have in front of you a document Executive Summary?‑‑‑I do.

PN205

This is a document that you've compiled in the last 24 hours?‑‑‑Correct.

PN206

That document though, the text of it, is the same as that in exhibit ARA1 save that you've included footnotes to source the factual data supporting your conclusions, is that right?‑‑‑Correct.

*** SEAN JAMES SANDS XN MR WHEELAHAN

PN207

I tender that, if the Commission please.

PN208

JUSTICE ROSS: Mark that exhibit ARA2.

EXHIBIT #ARA2 EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

PN209

MR WHEELAHAN: If the Commission pleases, I thought I might ask my learned friend, he didn't have an issue with this, if I go to one of the tables and just have the witness explain how the percentages work and the examples and the colour coding so that then the Commission's aware how then that applies to each of the tables. Dr Sands, if you go to table 24?‑‑‑What page is that?

PN210

That's page, I've written over the page number, I'm sorry.

PN211

MR FRIEND: 46.

PN212

MR WHEELAHAN: 36?‑‑‑Okay.

PN213

I'll just ask you the open question, I want you to explain the table in terms of the percentages which, of course, we know in columns don't add up to 100 percent and there's reasons why, and then the colour coding and how you arrive at that and what its purpose is?‑‑‑Sure. Okay, so referring to table 24, the data is cut in a number of different ways. So we look at it in terms of the total population sample, which is all people that conducted the survey in the first column. We then - -

*** SEAN JAMES SANDS XN MR WHEELAHAN

PN214

Sorry, just got a bit slower and louder, please?‑‑‑So we look at the survey in a number of ways. We look in the first column at the total number of people that were surveyed in the survey, so the total column, and here we also look at by what we call work arrangement, so whether they're employed permanently or casually. So there's the column headings and the numbers sit under those headings. The numbers don't necessarily add to 100 because questions weren't forced of responses - sorry, of the respondents, and also, in some instances, respondents were allowed to select more than one choice. The colour coding and the arrows refer to what we call significant differences. So the significant difference, there's a calculation of comparing one mean to a different mean and we use a statistical software process to calculate those differences. There are two ways that we calculate those differences. The note - I'll just draw your attention to the note under the table. Significant differences are represented by blue text equalling a significantly higher difference than the total sample. Red text equals a significantly lower difference than the total sample and then we have a cell shading whereby green cells represent differences compared to their respective column. So in this instance, we're comparing with the cell coding, colour coding, casuals to permanent. So for instance, the number 28 in the first row, ability to spend time with friends, is significantly higher for casual staff than it is for permanent staff but because there's no colour coding in terms of red or blue for the text, there is no difference to the total population figure of 26. That's a colour coding approach that's taken across all tables.

PN215

JUSTICE ROSS: The cell in green, does that tell us that those difficulties with working on a Saturday for casuals are significantly higher than when you compare the same cell for permanents?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN216

Within the cell, ability to socialise with friends and pace of Saturday trade, are higher than you would expect for the total sample?‑‑‑In the case of casual, yes, and for permanents they're lower, correct.

PN217

Yes. I suppose that must follow

PN218

MR WHEELAHAN: If the Commission pleases.

PN219

JUSTICE ROSS: Mr Friend?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FRIEND [11.20 AM]

PN220

MR FRIEND: Dr Sands, would it be fair to say that this survey was a reasonably substantial undertaking?‑‑‑In terms of the time and effort required to conduct it?

PN221

Yes?‑‑‑Yes.

PN222

And you needed to have a fairly large number of survey respondents to make sure that you got your standard deviations right?‑‑‑Correct. We have an estimation of the number of people that we need to speak to.

PN223

Yes, and you also had I think four days of interviews with focus groups in - just in Melbourne and Sydney, but at least four days of them, is that right?‑‑‑Correct.

PN224

Did you conduct the interviews or take part in them?‑‑‑Yes. I conducted half of the focus groups and I ran all of the survey research.

PN225

You rated all the - - -?‑‑‑Ran - I conducted - - -

*** SEAN JAMES SANDS XXN MR FRIEND

PN226

Yes, I see. Thank you. So doing it all within three weeks of being requested was a pretty major effort, I would suggest?‑‑‑It took 100 per cent of my focus, yes.

PN227

Just to make sure we've got all this straight, the focus groups give you qualitative research, which helps to give colour to the quantitative research which is the result of the survey?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN228

But the main part of the research is the quantitative research?‑‑‑That is the largest part, correct.

PN229

And that's what, in terms of drawing very broad‑based conclusions, that's what one should look to?‑‑‑Yes and no. There's a combination of qualitative and quantitative results for a reason. As you said, it's about bringing to life what are the numbers, and really, having the voice of retail employees included. So I would say that they are complementary and go hand‑in‑hand.

PN230

Can I ask you - I think there were some 900‑odd people who answered your questionnaire?‑‑‑Correct.

PN231

How did you obtain them?‑‑‑So the respondents for the survey are obtained through a survey panel process. This is common of social research within Australia and globally. So there's a - it's called Survey Sample International is the organisation. They're the world's largest survey panel provider, and they provide panel to answer the questions in the survey.

PN232

So they're a third party provider who give you the people that answer the questions. How do they get the people?‑‑‑Sure. They use a mixed method approach to recruit people of online and offline advertising, and people are advised that they can participate in market research and social research in exchange for a small monetary compensation.

PN233

One of the things that they're focussed on, and you're focussed on I assume, is that you've got to obtain a representative sample?‑‑‑That's correct.

*** SEAN JAMES SANDS XXN MR FRIEND

PN234

Really, without a representative sample the value of the research plummets, doesn't it?‑‑‑Again, yes and no. If we do not obtain a representative sample we can apply what are called weightings to the data, so we can use methods to - if we, for instance, obtain 80 per cent of the sample population being female when in fact the population is 60 per cent, then we can weight the scores or the responses of those individuals lower and of the other group higher. So there is a method around which to rebalance samples.

PN235

In order to do that you need to have some of the people in that group that you're going to re‑weight, don't you?‑‑‑Yes.

PN236

If you've got none in that group then you can't do any weighting/rebalancing, correct?‑‑‑Correct. We weight on age and gender and location primarily.

PN237

So if you exclude a group from the sample with a particular characteristic, then there's a chance at least that the exclusion will confound the reliability of the results?‑‑‑Yes. I would argue that it just excludes their voice.

PN238

Pardon?‑‑‑I would say that it would exclude their voice. So if you are a segment of individuals that represent a population and you're not included in the survey, then your voice is not included - if you are the sole segment within that population, but if you are one of many different segments, then it's just one voice that's excluded.

PN239

But you don't know anything about that group - - -?‑‑‑If they're excluded.

PN240

I'm talking in terms of voices. You don't know anything about that group?‑‑‑Correct. If a group is excluded, no, you don't.

PN241

Can I ask you to turn to Appendix B in your report, please? This is your questionnaire for the survey?‑‑‑Page 55, yes.

PN242

I'm sorry, I should have given you the page number. Can I just ask you, just while we're here so we don't have to come back, can you turn to page 57? This is for the survey people, isn't it - - -?‑‑‑This is - - -

PN243

- - - this material, and where it says how the data will be used - "At no stage will the workshop participants be identified or mentioned in any reports" - there are no workshops in relation to this survey, are there?‑‑‑Not for the survey component, no.

PN244

Okay, so that's just perhaps a - - -?‑‑‑A general statement, yes.

PN245

- - - general statement. If you look at the questions that you asked, if you go through to question 7, that's where you ask what is the age of the respondent to the survey?‑‑‑Correct. I'm just trying to find it, but yes, we do ask the age.

*** SEAN JAMES SANDS XXN MR FRIEND

PN246

And then there are various choices ranging from under 18 to over 65, and then at the bottom of that question it says, "Skip to end of block if what is your age equals under 18 years?"---Correct.

PN247

Do you see that? And "Skip to end of block" means we go through to page 56, is that right - sorry, it's the same page?‑‑‑Correct. This is a non‑qualified block.

PN248

Non-qualified?‑‑‑Correct.

PN249

So 1.8 says:

PN250

Thank you for your interest. Unfortunately, you do not meet the requirements for the research at this time.

PN251

Yes?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN252

So everyone who ticked that under 18 box was excluded from the survey?‑‑‑Correct. We did not have ethical approval to interview minors.

PN253

No, and one of the reasons you didn't get ethical approval was because you only had three weeks to get the results, correct?‑‑‑That's correct. It takes about three to four weeks just to go through the process for minors.

PN254

Had you had the option, you would of course got the ethical approval to get that from minors, correct?‑‑‑Correct. We would look for 15 to 17.

PN255

Yes, because you knew that that age group was an important sector in relation to casual people in retail, correct?‑‑‑Correct.

PN256

So to the extent that we look to your survey to tell us anything about that important sector, we can learn nothing?‑‑‑Not of the under 18 year olds, no.

PN257

You see, you knew that that was an important sector; you knew that a lot of young people, people in education, at school, have their casual work as their introduction to the workforce. You would have realised that that's an important aspect of what's going on in this case, wouldn't you?‑‑‑It's a limitation in terms of the age group. We do speak to a broad range of people that study and are casual and permanent, and that had to be the priority for this research.

*** SEAN JAMES SANDS XXN MR FRIEND

PN258

Well, but where do we find out that you've got this limitation in your report? Do we have to do what I've just done and dig right into the survey question to find out that you didn't ask anyone under the age of 18 anything?‑‑‑I'll need to check if it's in the executive summary. To the best of my knowledge, that's the only place it's referred to.

PN259

Yes. In fact, can you have a look at 1.2.1 on page 5?‑‑‑Mm‑hm.

PN260

There's a sentence that starts in the sixth last line with the word, "Further" -

PN261

the sample was representative of the Australian retail industry store‑based employee total sample in terms of gender, age and residential location.

PN262

Dr Sands, that's just misleading, isn't it?‑‑‑What I'll do is I'll refer you to page 41.

PN263

Dr Sands, can you answer my question. It's misleading to say that this is a survey which is representative of the retail population in terms of age?‑‑‑What that means is the survey conducted is representative in terms of the total population versus what we collected data on. It does omit the point that under 18 year olds were not included.

PN264

It doesn't imply that under 18 year olds were not - - -?‑‑‑It - I said it - sorry, it does. It omit the point that under 18 year olds are included.

PN265

And to say that it does that, it's misleading?‑‑‑I would argue against that, but.

PN266

You would argue against that. Well, how is it not misleading?‑‑‑We were commissioned to conduct research with permanent and casual employees. There was no specification in our briefing that we needed to conduct research with those under the age of 18. We did not have the time to obtain ethical requirements to do that, so this report is 18 years and over.

PN267

Well, Dr Sands, you've already said that if you had the time you would have done it because you understood the importance of that group. You've said in your report it's representative as to age. How can you say it's not misleading?‑‑‑Again I can refer you to the table where we say the representative nature of the sample.

PN268

JUSTICE ROSS: Dr Sands, can I just take you back to page 3?‑‑‑Sure.

*** SEAN JAMES SANDS XXN MR FRIEND

PN269

Under the heading "Profile of casual retail industry store base employees" et cetera, in the second sentence it talks about casuals being over-represented in terms of gender and then it says "Under 24 age bracket". Do you see that?‑‑‑Correct, yes.

PN270

So should we read that as being in effect 18 to 24 bracket?‑‑‑Yes, correct.

PN271

Does that mean that if you had included people under 18 that number would be even bigger?‑‑‑I would be speculating. It would be hard to ascertain that without the data.

PN272

Right. Thank you.

PN273

MR FRIEND: And similarly we won't know much about people who are at school on the basis of looking at your report?

PN274

JUSTICE ROSS: I'm sorry, what was that, Mr Friend? I missed - - -

PN275

MR FRIEND: At school. People at school?‑‑‑No. I'd say all these people would be school leavers.

PN276

Yes. Well, in fairness there might be some 18 year olds who are still at school. All right, now we've got some evidence before the Commission that says that the number of casuals in retail aged 15 to 19 in 2015 was 23.2 per cent. You wouldn't be able to disagree with that?‑‑‑No.

PN277

One of the employer witnesses from a large chain of companies, 40 per cent of their casuals or almost 40 per cent of their casuals are under the age of 18. You wouldn't say that that's out of the question?‑‑‑I can draw your attention just briefly to table 26, page 39.

PN278

Yes?‑‑‑Where we refer to 34 per cent of the sample being in the under 24, so 18 to 24. So that would not surprise me, that figure that you mentioned.

PN279

Yes, it fits with that. All right. Good. Now can I take you through to the executive summary on page 1. You say there in the heading under:

*** SEAN JAMES SANDS XXN MR FRIEND

PN280

Casual retail industry store based employee experience data reveal overall moderate levels of satisfaction with working in retail.

PN281

This is a summary of - I haven't checked your footnote but I assume this refers to table 1?‑‑‑That is correct.

PN282

Now can I seek to understand this table. The first row, "Mean" is the mean response of people in terms of zero to 10 and their answer to those questions?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN283

"Detractor", what do you mean by detractor?‑‑‑So there's a commonly used methodology called net promoter score. The net promoter score is a management and employment satisfaction measure developed by Bain & Co Consulting and used widely in academic research and commercial research. They break the zero to 10 point satisfaction scale into three groupings, zero to six, seven and eight and a nine and a 10, and they give the label "promoter" to a nine or 10, a neutral to a seven or eight and a detractor to a zero to six. The net promoter is then developed into a score so the detractors are subtracted from the promoters to give you the net promoter score and as we can see, I'll just draw your attention to the first column of table 1. So we have 47 per cent of people are detractors meaning that they rate their overall satisfaction with working in retail between zero and six.

PN284

Yes?‑‑‑And we have 12 per cent that are promoters rating their satisfaction as a nine or 10, and when we take away 12 minus 47 we end up with an overall net promoter score of negative 35.

PN285

Yes?‑‑‑The general interpretation is that a positive net promoter score means that there are more promoters than there are detractors and vice versa, in a negative net promoter score there are more detractors than there are promoters.

PN286

Yes, all right. So this way of looking at things is accepted within your academic discipline?‑‑‑It's accepted within management and employment based studies.

PN287

It's accepted by you?‑‑‑Yes, it's a means of interpreting data.

PN288

Yes?‑‑‑It's not the be all and end all means of interpreting data, which is why I also include the mean because I think it's good to include the two different perspectives.

*** SEAN JAMES SANDS XXN MR FRIEND

PN289

So nought to six you said is a detractor, so they're people who disagree or tend to disagree with the statement that's put to them?‑‑‑They are at the lower end of the satisfaction scale.

PN290

And then the nine and 10s are the promoters?‑‑‑The higher end of the satisfaction scale.

PN291

Okay, so in terms of the net promoter score we've got on this table for instance, they're all pretty high in the negatives aren't they?‑‑‑They are.

PN292

That doesn't suggest moderately high levels of satisfaction, does it?‑‑‑If you draw your attention to the means.

PN293

Yes?‑‑‑6.4, 6.3, 5.7 and 6.5. The means I would consider to be moderate.

PN294

Moderate?‑‑‑Moderate.

PN295

Okay, so what is the point of having the net promoter score?‑‑‑It's another way of interpreting data to show - as I said, to bring the data to life.

PN296

And that gives you a different take on it I assume?‑‑‑It gives you a more thorough take I would suggest.

PN297

Okay and the more - - -

PN298

JUSTICE ROSS: Sorry, can I just ask the mean score of say 6.4, is that on the satisfaction scale is it?‑‑‑Correct. That's on the zero to 10.

PN299

So that's just above detractor?‑‑‑Yes, tthey're kind of to be considered in two different ways. So the mean is the mean itself but what the mean doesn't tell you is how many people fall into each of the numbers, the zeros, the ones, the twos. What net promoter does is it gives you a bit more of an interpretation around the actual proportion of people that sit at each point along the scale.

PN300

COMMISSIONER LEE: So it's like a broken down variance?‑‑‑Correct. Yes.

PN301

MR FRIEND: So the 41 per cent in that total there are the seven and eights?‑‑‑The, sorry? The which?

*** SEAN JAMES SANDS XXN MR FRIEND

PN302

Forty - it's the first column in table 1?‑‑‑Yes.

PN303

41 per cent are seven and eight, 47 per cent are nought to six and 12 per cent are nine and ten?‑‑‑Correct.

PN304

Yes. So as you say the NPS gives you a better view of what the levels of satisfaction are?‑‑‑It's a complementary view.

PN305

A complementary view. But you wouldn't say that these figures suggest high levels or moderately high levels of satisfaction?‑‑‑These levels are - I wouldn't say that they're extremely high, no.

PN306

No, or even moderately high?‑‑‑There are definitely more detractors than there are promoters. Yes.

PN307

Yes, okay. So when you turn over the page to stage 2 data, this is the focus groups?‑‑‑Yes.

PN308

Here this is a - this isn't a mathematical assessment. This is based on a feeling you get from sitting in the focus groups and reading what they say. Correct?‑‑‑Correct.

PN309

And where you've said "Moderately high" there, you feel that they gave you a different view? This is in the second line, the second and third line. It's under "Stage 2 data" heading. A different view to the actual figures?‑‑‑Again it's very hard to compare but whether in stage one moderate versus stage one moderately high, it's ‑ I couldn't - - -

PN310

My question was it's just different?‑‑‑I couldn't say it's moderately - it's not high, it's not low. It's definitely in the moderate range.

PN311

All right but there's a net - they're net detractors, if we look at table two, well we can call it a net detractor store really in this one because they're almost all minus all the way through, the only time where it's not quite high is Saturday permanents. There's quite a lot of promoters there?‑‑‑Correct, and that is significantly different to both the total population and compared to those working Monday to Friday evenings.

*** SEAN JAMES SANDS XXN MR FRIEND

PN312

Yes, yes, all right, and so then you've used the focus groups to give us some examples of how all this has come out in the course of those focus groups. Can I show you, and you provided to us in the course of preparations for the case, thanks, the document which records what occurred in those focus groups?‑‑‑Okay, yes, these are - we had a third person, a person viewing the groups who was frantically taking notes as they occurred. These are not verbatim statements but these are trying to capture the conversation.

PN313

You've read these?‑‑‑In developing the results, yes, yes. We actually - just to give you some context of the process, there were two of us that conducted the groups, we did half of them each. The purpose for that was so that we could remove individual bias. So we both, after conducting our own groups, got a sense of the flavour of the conversation, read each other's separate groups and had a discussion and then collated what are the findings in front of you.

PN314

It's often difficult to tell from these notes whether it's the same person talking or someone else. Is that a fair enough - - -?‑‑‑These statements do not have the name of the individual speaking, no, yes.

PN315

No, well can you look at this first one, customer engagement. You've got a quotation there "I feel it can be" - this is on page eight of your report, I'm sorry?‑‑‑I see it.

PN316

"I feel it can be really satisfying when you feel you have really helped someone or made someone's day", a casual fashion retail in female, but if you go to page four of the focus - of the group summaries, that person goes on, this is the bottom of the page, it says "I feel like more and more I'm getting that gratification from my freelance work. I guess the thing that I was thinking before, negative things about retail, that there's such huge disconnect between floor staff and people head office setting the rules and so many unrealistic expectations which really get you down and I was in a shop the other day, homeware shop, and walked in and" she goes on and then further down the page, someone, I don't know if it was you, says "So it feels more isolated and more disconnected?" and she says "I think the disconnect for me is the expectation between someone that sits in head office in Melbourne and comes down every six months. Well and truly I become totally disillusioned and looks like I'm out of there now". Do you think that the was best person to talk about the positive drivers for working in retail?‑‑‑It's very difficult to ascertain who the best person is. We have to make a judgment call as a research team to draw out the key themes. It's really about identifying themes as opposed to ‑ and then from those themes, trying to identify quotes that represent those themes.

*** SEAN JAMES SANDS XXN MR FRIEND

PN317

All right?‑‑‑Sorry, I should add too that a theme is by no means representative of one respondent. A theme is something that we get a sense from across the conversations. We then try to bring to life that theme with a quote.

PN318

But in a lot of these themes, they're presented, at least, as direct quotations, yes?‑‑‑The quotations are in red, yes. They - - -

PN319

They are direct quotations or - - -?‑‑‑They are direct, they are quotations that we believe represent the themes that we are talking about.

PN320

If you look at the next one, collegiality - - -

PN321

JUSTICE ROSS: I'm sorry, the red quotations?‑‑‑There's ‑ ‑ ‑

PN322

MR FRIEND: I think - is your copy of the report in colour, your Honour?‑‑‑If they're not red, they'll be in italics.

PN323

JUSTICE ROSS: They're blue.

PN324

MR FRIEND: Blue. I'm using black and white one at the moment, so I'm sorry?‑‑‑So am I, yes.

PN325

I can see that they're coloured.

PN326

JUSTICE ROSS: Okay.

PN327

MR FRIEND: They're blue?

PN328

JUSTICE ROSS: Yes, and in italics.

PN329

MR FRIEND: And in italics?‑‑‑Yes.

*** SEAN JAMES SANDS XXN MR FRIEND

PN330

All right. The next one, collegiality, "I work with a really wonderful team". If you look for that in the group summaries, we need really to turn to page 101 of the group summaries and of the latter half of that page, there's a paragraph which is "I fell into it" then a few lines down "Then I moved to Melbourne and got offered a job and for me it was always just it happened. I was there. I enjoyed it but still a thing I'm doing when I figure out what I really want to do and I'm 45 and haven't figured out yet and I think it all comes down to the people your team".

PN331

That's the passage that you've put in there up to "Great job", and then that person goes on with some more things which are not quoted in the report, but you see the "Great job" there, you've got the quotation just continuing on and the next part comes from the next page, at the bottom of the page on 102, "It's the culture of the company. Definitely the culture where you work but then it does come down to smaller teams" and then there's something else said. This seems to be a statement from someone called Christopher. You'll see further up that page, "What about you, Christopher?" Is it Christopher - - -?‑‑‑I'm sorry, could you just draw my attention to where you're seeing ‑ ‑ ‑

PN332

Yes, okay, you go to 102 in the middle of the page?‑‑‑Yes, Christopher, correct.

PN333

We've dealt with - we've kept part of the quotation come from the previous page and then there's a question from the interviewer "What about you, Christopher?" who seems to be saying these additional things but you've stitched it altogether as one quotation. Are we to take this sort of all just as an impressionistic picking out of things from all of these statements that you've - that's the exercise you've gone through to try and support what you've said in the report?‑‑‑So what would have happened here is this would be the same person making a statement across the conversation that's then been drawn together at the points are collated to bring to life their overall sentiment with regard to the theme.

PN334

How do we know it's the same person?‑‑‑We - because we sit in the groups.

PN335

I'm sorry?‑‑‑Because we sit in the groups and we have conversations - - -

PN336

You remember this one? Well you did it. Did you remember ‑ it seems to be a change from this person on page 101 to "What about you, Christopher?"?‑‑‑We actually have the benefit of recording visually so we can actually look back and see that either it's a recall of memory or it's checking the audio - the video transcription tapes.

PN337

I thought you said someone was writing all this down, so?‑‑‑Correct, given the time, we wanted to actually have these notes immediately so we had someone in the room doing live transcription.

PN338

Do you recall checking back on this to see if that was right?‑‑‑It'd be either myself or my colleague would have, yes.

*** SEAN JAMES SANDS XXN MR FRIEND

PN339

That it was the same person?‑‑‑Correct, yes. That's probably - as an indicator, it's most likely if there's a new line for a conversation, then it's a new person speaking. So for instance, at the bottom of page 102 under the question "So it's not so much", there's two people there responding to that question.

PN340

All right. But we can take it that what you're really involved in here is trying to draw things out from these interviews which tend to support things that you want to say in the report?‑‑‑Qualitative research is interpretative by nature so it's definitely about listening to conversations and collating those conversations into themes and then looking for representative quotes to bring those themes to life.

PN341

All right. You also deal with drivers of satisfaction, at the bottom of page 8 of your report?‑‑‑Yes.

PN342

And you've got some quotations there - well you talk about the drivers being "set and forget, autonomy and leverage earnings?"---That's correct. They were the key things.

PN343

Those are the three things that you felt were the drivers?‑‑‑They were the dominant themes to come through and across all the conversations.

PN344

"Leverage earnings" was really the leverage of getting weekend work with more pay, is that it?‑‑‑Yes, correct, particularly to the point cherry‑picking weekend work.

PN345

Can I suggest that money itself was an important aspect - just earning the money was a big driver in relation to the satisfaction of the people that took part in these - - -?‑‑‑It was definitely a top three driver, yes.

PN346

You haven't really mentioned money. You've talked about leverage earnings, but you haven't mentioned money itself?‑‑‑We use the term "earnings" to relate to income - money.

PN347

That's what you mean by "leverage earnings?"---Correct. They're looking to increase some leverage of their earnings.

PN348

You haven't given any examples of what people say there. So you said they're looking to increase their earnings?‑‑‑That's what they do by cherry‑picking their shifts, yes.

*** SEAN JAMES SANDS XXN MR FRIEND

PN349

Can I take you through to page 2 of the group summaries? A third of the way down the page: "What motivates people to work in retail?" - "Money." And then the rest of that passage is all about the money?‑‑‑Mm‑hm.

PN350

Go through to page 6, halfway down the page. People were asked what are people's intentions to stay in retail - "No, I am just doing it for the money." So if something better came along -

PN351

Yes, lately I'm working as the metro manager for a sports company, which is not in retail but they have retail stores. I'm continuing in the retail thing just for the money, money and the business.

PN352

Page 37, at the middle of the page:

PN353

A range of motivations. No one has really talked about money as a motivator.

PN354

And then someone answers, "We know that is top?"---Mm‑hm.

PN355

There are a number of others that, really, earning the money is one of the critical drivers for people engaging in retail, isn't it?‑‑‑It is definitely one of our key drivers of satisfaction.

PN356

You haven't really given it much exposure in your report, have you?‑‑‑There are three key drivers. Two of them we consider primary, and three of them secondary, and earnings - money - is in the top three secondary drivers.

PN357

You've qualified that - you've called it "leverage earnings?"---Correct, and we also have quantitative data, which looks at that as well.

PN358

But I'm dealing with your summary here, which is - or in fact the body of your report, which is where you're setting out what we should make of your findings, and you've really discounted the importance of the money in terms of those things, haven't you? It's even the third of your primary drivers?‑‑‑There's no rank order to those drivers, I would say.

PN359

Well there's no rank, but you've put them in a particular order, and you've given none of those quotations that I've taken you to from the document, have you?‑‑‑They were all very single line quotations, so we didn't.

*** SEAN JAMES SANDS XXN MR FRIEND

PN360

They were what?‑‑‑They were - I think the ones from memory that you drawed my attention to were just single line quotations, so not - - -

PN361

Is that a reason why you wouldn't use them?‑‑‑As a quotation, yes, we look for something that's more of a story that will bring it together through the verbal words of the employee.

PN362

The first one I took you to is a bit longer than that, I think. But I'm just suggesting that really you've sought to downplay the money aspect of things in this report. Do you agree with that?‑‑‑I disagree with that - no.

PN363

So you do agree that money for retail workers is tremendously important in terms of the job they do and their satisfaction?‑‑‑It's a top five driver qualitatively, and we can look at the quantitative piece of the data as well if you wish.

PN364

So we should read your report with that in our mind?‑‑‑We should definitely read the qualitative with the quantitative and blend the two together.

PN365

One of the things you didn't ask people about in your survey was how important the money was?‑‑‑Sorry, I missed the first part of the question.

PN366

Your survey?‑‑‑Yes.

PN367

You didn't ask people how important the money was?‑‑‑No, we asked people to list the range of benefits and difficulties.

PN368

And you didn't ask them if they'd like more money?‑‑‑We asked them if they'd like to do more shifts.

PN369

Yes. You didn't ask them if they'd like higher pay?‑‑‑I mean, I think everyone wants higher pay. It's probably - - -

PN370

We can take that as a given, all right - and that's why you didn't ask them?‑‑‑I want more pay.

PN371

It's a silly question because you'll get an obvious answer?‑‑‑(No audible reply).

*** SEAN JAMES SANDS XXN MR FRIEND

PN372

Okay. As well as the group summaries, you also prepared a highlights of those summaries. Can I tender the group summaries, your Honour?

PN373

JUSTICE ROSS: I don't have copies of that, if you - - -

PN374

MR FRIEND: No, we'll give it to you.

PN375

JUSTICE ROSS: Will this be A5?

PN376

MR FRIEND: This is the highlights. I'm sorry, I don't know which number it is. It's 6, I'm sorry, your Honour.

PN377

JUSTICE ROSS: Which one - when you say the highlights, do you mean this - - -

PN378

MR FRIEND: No, the one - you've got the group summaries as 6, and the one we're just handing up now will be 7 in due course.

PN379

JUSTICE ROSS: You've got both of those, I take it, Mr Wheelahan?

PN380

MR WHEELAHAN: I do now, thank you.

PN381

JUSTICE ROSS: Right.

PN382

MR FRIEND: Who prepared this?‑‑‑These were the written notes that were compiled by myself and the other interviewer immediately following the groups, and we basically just typed up our key thoughts of what we felt the sentiment was.

PN383

So I just want to take you to the very last page?‑‑‑Mm‑hm.

PN384

You've said there, "following the groups," -

PN385

My take, definitely more significant disutility for working on Saturday compared with any other time, including Sunday.

PN386

?‑‑‑Mm-hm.

*** SEAN JAMES SANDS XXN MR FRIEND

PN387

Yes?‑‑‑Correct.

PN388

And that was your opinion at the time?‑‑‑This was my colleague's, but yes, that was our opinion coming out of the group, yes.

PN389

Yes, okay. You agree with that?‑‑‑This was our sentiment - yes, these are our sentiments following the groups.

PN390

Thank you.

PN391

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: Is that statement made by reference to all employees?‑‑‑This was our sentiment following all of the groups, yes.

PN392

MR FRIEND: I tender that, if your Honour pleases.

PN393

JUSTICE ROSS: I think marked the larger document as exhibit SDA6, and the synthesis document is exhibit SDA7.

EXHIBIT #SDA6 GROUP SUMMARIES

EXHIBIT #SDA7 HIGHLIGHTS OF GROUP SUMMARIES

PN394

THE WITNESS: And actually, if you want, I can give some context to that statement.

PN395

MR FRIEND: I'm sorry, I'll just take you down to page 2. The first full paragraph there, here we're dealing with:

PN396

Casual employees' motivations for working Saturday were commonly cited as being the hours provided by the employer.

PN397

?‑‑‑Sorry, are you on the same - - -

PN398

Sorry, now I'm in your report?‑‑‑Sorry, which - - -?

PN399

I'm sorry to jump around. We're finished with that document, so I'd like to - - -?‑‑‑Okay. Are you in the executive summary?

*** SEAN JAMES SANDS XXN MR FRIEND

PN400

Yes.

PN401

JUSTICE ROSS: What page of the report?

PN402

MR FRIEND: Page 2 of the report.

PN403

And you've set out the fact that Saturday work is - this is the first full paragraph "Those are the hours provided by the employer" and then you've summarised the benefits and difficulties associated with Saturday work. Correct?‑‑‑Correct. Are you looking at the amended version with the footnotes?

PN404

I wasn't looking at the amended version but it should be the same, shouldn't it?‑‑‑It's the same but every sentence has a reference to where the data is coming from.

PN405

Yes?‑‑‑Yes.

PN406

I follow. So I probably don't need to take you through that any further, given this. Now in your survey you haven't been able to separate out people who are on the award and people who are under agreements?‑‑‑Not - we haven't conducted that level of analysis but we have captured that data.

PN407

You have the data?‑‑‑We have asked them which award they're on. This report doesn't present data based on that.

PN408

Okay, because some agreements will have different provisions in relation to the payment of casuals and loadings and things like that. You're aware of that?‑‑‑Yes, correct. Yes.

PN409

But you haven't included anything that might tell us something about what the casuals on awards think as opposed to the casuals on agreements?‑‑‑No. We split it by work arrangement only.

PN410

All right. Did you do that work and not include it in your report?‑‑‑No, we haven't. No.

*** SEAN JAMES SANDS XXN MR FRIEND

PN411

You haven't done it. Yes. Now I think if we go through your CV and I think you said your occupation was associate professor in marketing. Your publications deal with marketing?‑‑‑Marketing and consumer behaviour.

PN412

Yes, marketing and consumer behaviour and I think the only thing that I could see that might have to do with employees is on page 50, the heading "Book Chapter". Do you see that there?‑‑‑Correct. Yes.

PN413

And there's a case 16, "Attracting Generation Y to retail"?‑‑‑Yes.

PN414

Yes, and that's a case - is it a text book or something?‑‑‑Yes, a retail management text book.

PN415

A retail text book and it's a fictitious case about the Diva brand, is that right?‑‑‑It's a real case but, yes, based on Diva.

PN416

Based on Diva. So it is a real - yes?‑‑‑Yes, we interviewed the Diva - - -

PN417

If I were Generation Y I'd probably know what Diva was?‑‑‑Yes.

PN418

Okay?‑‑‑Yes.

PN419

And one of the things that you suggest in there about getting Generation Y to go into retail is increasing the salary package. Correct?‑‑‑Sure.

PN420

Nothing further, if the Commission pleases.

PN421

MR WHEELAHAN: No re‑examination.

PN422

JUSTICE ROSS: Sorry, Doctor, you were going to explain the statement you were taken to on the last page of the Synthesis document?‑‑‑Sorry, I missed the question?

*** SEAN JAMES SANDS XXN MR FRIEND

PN423

I thought you said you wanted to explain something about that statement on the last page of the Synthesis document?‑‑‑Let me just find the statement. So the context around this conversation was it was very common for those working weekends to talk about the fact that Saturdays were the busiest day of the week and they felt that given Sunday rates were typically higher, that they were actually losing out in terms of the amount of work that they had to do. However the counter side to that was that also Saturdays were the most enjoyable day to work because they were the busiest day of the week. So on a Sunday is the day that people tend to go shopping, it goes quickly, the day passes fast. It's also a day that's typically well-staffed. So that was the kind of balance between the perceptions of income versus the perceptions of enjoyment for working that day.

PN424

But notwithstanding that your conclusion was the disutility for Saturday was the highest of the week?‑‑‑In terms of the - - -

PN425

Well, I'm just reading that last sentence?‑‑‑Correct. In terms of the overall feeling and sentiment of working on a Saturday.

PN426

And there was no distinction in that respect between permanents and casuals?‑‑‑Not that we identified.

PN427

All right. Thank you.

PN428

Nothing arising? Thank you very much for your evidence, Dr Sands, you're excused.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [12.05 PM]

PN429

MR FRIEND: Your Honour, can I raise something that I probably should have raised at the outset? We're going quite well with the witnesses of course but Ms Burnley has unfortunately to attend a funeral on Thursday morning. I've raised this with my learned friend. We are confident we could deal with submissions in the afternoon if we start at 1 o'clock. If the Bench were able to and minded to start on Thursday at 1 o'clock we would appreciate that. We understand if that's not convenient.

PN430

JUSTICE ROSS: Yes, I've got a matter in Sydney in the afternoon.

PN431

MR FRIEND: Well then we - - -

PN432

JUSTICE ROSS: What about Wednesday afternoon?

PN433

MR FRIEND: I think that makes sense, your Honour. If my learned friend is content with that, we'll have time to do our preparation. It's going to be a short submission.

*** SEAN JAMES SANDS XXN MR FRIEND

PN434

JUSTICE ROSS: All right.

PN435

Yes?

PN436

MR WHEELAHAN: I'm content with that, your Honour.

PN437

JUSTICE ROSS: Okay. I'm just trying to work out if I'm content with that. We might have a chat about it after the lunch break and we'll try and work it through.

PN438

MR FRIEND: Yes, your Honour. It's merely a request and I've put it in terms of - - -

PN439

JUSTICE ROSS: No, no, no, that's fine. Yes, that's fine. What time do you want to come back and how quickly can we deal with the balance of the evidence? I think one of the witnesses has dropped off?

PN440

MR FRIEND: Well, it's mostly up to me in terms of cross‑examination. I think I'll be pretty quick. Obviously we had discussed shortly the times. I'm not sure if people are going to be available. Ms Ferrier won't be called.

PN441

JUSTICE ROSS: Yes.

PN442

MR FRIEND: But we've got two - three at perhaps half an hour and two at 10 minutes I would say.

PN443

MR WHEELAHAN: Yes. Sorry, if I could just get the times? Obviously they're all on video link but if we make some calls.

PN444

JUSTICE ROSS: Yes.

PN445

MR WHEELAHAN: And see if - so Ms Elson the estimate is?

PN446

MR FRIEND: Half an hour.

PN447

MR WHEELAHAN: Half an hour.

PN448

MR FRIEND: And Vears is 10 minutes.

PN449

MR WHEELAHAN: 10 minutes, and they work together so they'll travel together. Mr Slaughter is?

PN450

MR FRIEND: Half an hour.

PN451

MR WHEELAHAN: Half an hour.

PN452

MR FRIEND: Freeman, 10 minutes.

PN453

MR WHEELAHAN: 10 minutes. Should I contact the associate? If we make some calls and see if we can get everybody in a bit sooner.

PN454

JUSTICE ROSS: Absolutely, yes.

PN455

MR WHEELAHAN: Okay.

PN456

JUSTICE ROSS: That would be great.

PN457

MR WHEELAHAN: All right then we'll do that.

PN458

JUSTICE ROSS: All right. Thanks very much. So we'll come back at 1.30? Or do you want to see - - -

PN459

MR WHEELAHAN: If you could - - -

PN460

JUSTICE ROSS: Do you want to make it 1 o'clock?

PN461

MR WHEELAHAN: Well, 1.30 for those two but we'll certainly then try and move all the others forward.

PN462

JUSTICE ROSS: Yes, we'll move quickly after that. No, that's fine. Thank you.

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT [12.08 PM]

RESUMED [1.33 PM]

PN463

MR WHEELAHAN: Thank you, your Honour. Do you want us to quickly deal with the closing submissions? I've had a discussion with my learned friend.

PN464

JUSTICE ROSS: Sure, we can do 2 o'clock tomorrow if that ‑ ‑ ‑

PN465

MR FRIEND: That's very convenient, thank you.

PN466

JUSTICE ROSS: No, that's all right.

PN467

MR WHEELAHAN: Thank you. I call Joanne Elson.

PN468

THE ASSOCIATE: Please state your full name and address.

PN469

MS ELSON: Joanne Elson, (address supplied).

<JOANNE ELSON, AFFIRMED [1.34 PM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR WHEELAHAN [1.34 PM]

PN470

MR WHEELAHAN: Thank you. Your name is Joanne Elson?‑‑‑Yes.

PN471

You're a director of B&J Elson Nominees which runs the Mount Barker IGA in South Australia, correct?‑‑‑Correct.

PN472

You prepared a witness statement which you've signed dated 22 July 2018, correct?‑‑‑I did.

PN473

Are there any changes that you wish to make to that statement?‑‑‑Just one change. One of my full time employees resigned two weeks ago, so he's no longer part of my workforce.

PN474

Which paragraph? Paragraph five?‑‑‑Yes, yes.

PN475

All right, so it now should read 40 employees?‑‑‑40 total and 10 permanent is of that 40, instead of the 11.

*** JOANNE ELSON XN MR WHEELAHAN

PN476

Well we'll just amend the whole paragraph as we read it. "Business currently employs 40 employees, not including myself. All of these", again change 41 to 40 "are in retail positions. Our workforce is made up of" so that should now be 18 males and 22 females?‑‑‑22 females, correct.

PN477

Paragraph 10, "We currently employ 11 permanent staff", we change that to 10, correct?‑‑‑Correct.

PN478

"And 14 out of the 11", that should be 10?‑‑‑Correct.

PN479

JUSTICE ROSS: The percentage will change but I don't think ‑ ‑ ‑

PN480

MR WHEELAHAN: Sorry?

PN481

JUSTICE ROSS: We can calculate the percentage for ourselves.

PN482

MR WHEELAHAN: Yes, thank you. With those changes to your statement, is it true and correct in every particular?‑‑‑Yes.

PN483

Thank you. I tender that statement, if the Commission pleases.

PN484

JUSTICE ROSS: Mark that exhibit ARA2.

EXHIBIT #ARA3 WITNESS STATEMENT OF JOANNE ELSON DATED 22/07/2018

PN485

MR WHEELAHAN: Thank you.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FRIEND [1.36 PM]

PN486

MR FRIEND: Just to be clear, Ms Elson, in paragraph 14, of the 10 permanent staff, is it still five who have children?‑‑‑No, there'll be four now.

PN487

Thank you. You say that person resigned two weeks ago?‑‑‑He did, yes. He finished on Friday.

PN488

Are you replacing him?‑‑‑No, I'm not, no.

*** JOANNE ELSON XXN MR FRIEND

PN489

I think you give in evidence in your statement that over the past couple of years, you've had a couple of major competitors open up within a very short distance of you?‑‑‑I have, yes.

PN490

That's something that's perhaps particular to you, not all retailers will have had those sort of changes over the recent period. You agree with that?‑‑‑In South Australia, we've had 26 Aldi stores open in the last three years, so we've all been hurt a little bit across the network.

PN491

Sure, and that's led you to reduce your staff from 46, well at the time of the statement it was first made for 41, now you're not replacing that person, to 40, correct?‑‑‑Correct.

PN492

I think you said at the time you made the statement there'd been a 15 percent reduction in sales?‑‑‑Yes, I have.

PN493

That's still the case?‑‑‑Yes, it is, unfortunately.

PN494

That's led to a 15 percent reduction in your workforce?‑‑‑It has.

PN495

It's the fact that with fewer sales you need fewer staff, is it?‑‑‑It is, yes.

PN496

You've said in your statement that you try and limit your direct labour costs to 10 percent of retail sales, yes?‑‑‑Correct.

PN497

In paragraph nine you say "We structure our use of labour". When you say we, you're really the proprietor of the business is that right?‑‑‑I am.

PN498

Yes, so we means you?‑‑‑We means me but I believe my workforce is we.

PN499

Are you an employee of the business that works in the store?‑‑‑Well I work in the store but I'm not an employee.

PN500

Not an employee so you take drawings or a share of profits?‑‑‑I do, correct.

*** JOANNE ELSON XXN MR FRIEND

PN501

That 10 percent figure that you've relied on, where did you get that?‑‑‑It's a basic retailing figure that most independents try to abide by as much we can. It's the most that we feel we can spend on wages in any financial year to sustain the company or the business.

PN502

You do it over the year?‑‑‑Correct.

PN503

You don't calculate that month to month and say "Well how many should I put on this month"? You work it out at the end of the year?‑‑‑Well we watch wages every single week when we're doing our rosters but the aim is to try and get it as close to that 10 percent as we can.

PN504

Yes. I assume lower would be better if you could do it?‑‑‑Absolutely, yes.

PN505

But there is a trade off. If you go low by taking people off the floor the queues might be out the door and no one will come in because they've got to wait too long to make a purchase, correct?‑‑‑One of our key drivers in the independent sector is our ability to serve our customers better than the chains, so that's why our wages always sit around that 10 per cent mark, which is higher than what the chains use their labour force at.

PN506

So I think the answer then to my question is yes, you need to have people there to provide the service?‑‑‑We want our customers to get the best service they can.

PN507

Do you trade on Sundays?‑‑‑We do.

PN508

You don't mention that anywhere in your statement?‑‑‑Yes. We're open seven days a week, Sundays we open eight till eight.

PN509

I missed that. So you'd recently had a reduction in the payments you've had to make for Sundays?‑‑‑We have, thank you.

PN510

There's some - - -

PN511

JUSTICE ROSS: I don't think you should be thanking Mr Friend?‑‑‑Sorry.

PN512

MR FRIEND: I had nothing to do with it anyway. If I'd been here it might have been different.

*** JOANNE ELSON XXN MR FRIEND

PN513

JUSTICE ROSS: We'll pass that onto Mr Moore and see how he feels about it but sure.

PN514

MR FRIEND: There'll be another reduction next July, correct?‑‑‑Yes.

PN515

As a result of that reduction have you put on anymore staff?‑‑‑We haven't put on anymore staff but we've increased some staff hours on that Sunday. We have a bit more flexibility now to get the shop a bit more shipshape ready for the Monday where previously we didn't.

PN516

So you're doing work that you weren't doing previously on the Sunday because it costs less?‑‑‑Correct.

PN517

You were doing that previously on the Monday were you?‑‑‑Sorry, I didn't hear that?

PN518

You were doing that previously on the Monday?‑‑‑Yes, we'd have - well we've kept the same Monday workforce but it just means we've extended a few casual hours on the Sunday just to get things a bit more prepared for the Monday.

PN519

Do you have the same hours on the Monday as you had before?‑‑‑Yes, we do.

PN520

When you - you're aware that there are regular national wage increases that apply now?‑‑‑Yes.

PN521

You had one of those very recently, beginning of July?‑‑‑We did.

PN522

Did you change the hours that are worked as a result of that?‑‑‑I have fine-tuned it moderately just by maybe five hours each week.

PN523

So what have you done in relation to that, taken five hours off the number of hours per - - -?‑‑‑Because I like to be incredibly fair to everyone on our workforce, it's a case of maybe one member starting an hour later one day a week and another finishing an hour earlier. We've just slowly - just trimmed it a little bit, just to help with that increase.

PN524

The work that they were doing previously was excess to requirements was it?‑‑‑Probably, yes.

*** JOANNE ELSON XXN MR FRIEND

PN525

So when you're watching the 10 per cent you're not watching it necessarily all that closely?‑‑‑No.

PN526

Sometimes you will keep it around that 10 per cent figure, even if you don't necessarily need the work done. Is that right?‑‑‑Well it all depends on your sales at the end of the week as well. I mean we might have a few quiet days in there which brings the wages up slightly or we'll have a few busy days which brings it down, so we just try and balance it out at the end.

PN527

You're trying to predict what the sales are going to be each week are you before you set the rosters?‑‑‑We are guessing, yes.

PN528

You've given figures that after 6 pm on weekdays 76 per cent of people are casuals. That's in paragraph 20?‑‑‑Yes.

PN529

Does that mean that basically you have one permanent person for weekday evenings and the balance are casuals?‑‑‑We have one permanent employee that does the evening close and the rest are all casuals; university and high school students.

PN530

Yes, so your permanent employees are entitled to a loading under the award?‑‑‑They are.

PN531

Why is it that you have a permanent employee there then rather than a casual?‑‑‑They're the ones I trust the most. They're my permanent staff and they're the ones that look after me and I look after them. I feel more - it's more comfortable for me to have one of my permanent staff on each shift.

PN532

But all of your workforce on Saturdays are casual?‑‑‑Yes.

PN533

So that doesn't count on Saturdays, is that right?‑‑‑Well Saturday is the day that I like all the full-timers to have a day off. It's the one day of the weekend that I want them to spend with their families, go to their footballs games, do whatever they need to do on a weekend because one in every three weeks they work a Sunday. So I like everyone to try and have that Saturday off.

PN534

So some of your permanents work on the Sunday?‑‑‑Yes.

PN535

Do you have casuals on the Sunday?‑‑‑Yes.

*** JOANNE ELSON XXN MR FRIEND

PN536

So why so many more casuals on Saturdays than on Sundays?‑‑‑It's just - it's a personal choice for me. It's the day that I feel all my permanent staff should enjoy a day off.

PN537

Have they asked you for that?‑‑‑No. It's just a thing that I've done for them.

PN538

Something you've also done for yourself in terms of lower wages, isn't it?‑‑‑Yes.

PN539

Yes. Now if you look at the figures you've done for the increases that might apply, starting at about paragraph 29. Can I suggest to you that what you've done here is you've taken the hourly rate, the average hourly rate for casuals that you pay in the evenings and you've simply increased that by 25 per cent to get the new rate?‑‑‑I did, yes.

PN540

You're aware that the claim is not for a 25 per cent increase on the payment including the casual loading aren't you?‑‑‑Yes. So that - - -

PN541

So you've over-stated the amount there haven't you?‑‑‑Well, probably yes, I apologise.

PN542

Did anyone tell you just to add 25 per cent?‑‑‑No, it was my own workings.

PN543

Was it your idea to get the total number of hours allocated to the casuals in the evenings, work out the average and then increase it by 25 per cent?‑‑‑Yes. But it is a 25 per cent increase, isn't it?

PN544

Well it's a 25 per cent on the ordinary time rate?‑‑‑Yes.

PN545

Do you understand that?‑‑‑Yes, yes.

PN546

So that's not the same as 25 per cent on the casual rate is it?‑‑‑No.

PN547

I'm really just doing this in fairness to you to give you an opportunity to comment, I'm not trying to suggest that you should have got it right or you've been at fault in any way. I just want to give you an opportunity to comment on whether there's some reason you've done that that I haven't seen?‑‑‑No, I did just do it plus the 25 per cent on the average hourly rate that I worked out.

*** JOANNE ELSON XXN MR FRIEND

PN548

How did you work out the additional payments for casuals on Saturdays?‑‑‑Added the 15 per cent - - -

PN549

I see?‑‑‑ - - - on the top of the 1.35, yes.

PN550

I suggest to you that the correct amount to add would have been 11.1 per cent for the same reasons. Do you have anything to say about that?‑‑‑No, just an honest mistake.

PN551

That's all right. Now you've told us a lot about ratios of cost sales. You don't however say anywhere in your statement what the sales are on an annual basis do you?‑‑‑No, I do not.

PN552

You don't say anywhere what the profit of the business is on an annual basis?‑‑‑No.

PN553

You've got a heading at paragraph 39:

PN554

Accessing sufficient employees to staff weekday evenings and Saturdays.

PN555

Do you see that?‑‑‑Sorry, can you repeat that, I missed that.

PN556

Yes. Paragraph 39 you say - you have a heading on top of that:

PN557

Accessing sufficient employees to staff weekday evenings and Saturdays.

PN558

?‑‑‑Yes, I'm with you.

PN559

But what you're really talking about in the paragraphs after that is why you think that the employment's good for casuals, isn't it?‑‑‑Yes.

PN560

Okay, and it would be just as good for them if they had a penalty rate obviously, wouldn't it?‑‑‑(No audible reply).

PN561

Correct? You need to speak your answer?‑‑‑Yes.

*** JOANNE ELSON XXN MR FRIEND

PN562

Yes, and you've also said in paragraph 42 that not one casual in the last five years has asked for transition to permanent employment. Correct?‑‑‑That's true.

PN563

Now prior to you getting involved in this case did you ever offer a casual transition to permanent employment?‑‑‑Yes I have.

PN564

Yes, and how often?‑‑‑Well, I let things go along for a year and if I see that they're starting to do some fairly regular, consistent shifts that's when I give them the opportunity to consider a permanent part‑time rate. But the responses that I receive is that they like the casual rate, they like the higher rate of pay and they like the flexibility.

PN565

And if you give them the permanent part‑time rate and they're working on Saturdays would you keep them on, on the Saturday, under current circumstances or would you move them?‑‑‑If they were permanent part‑times would I keep them on Saturdays?

PN566

Yes?‑‑‑Yes.

PN567

So if one of your casual employees is offered permanent work and they were always working on a Saturday, you'd keep them on the Saturday and pay the penalty rate?‑‑‑Yes.

PN568

So that wouldn't be a problem for you?‑‑‑No.

PN569

Now would it be fair to say that your casuals are good employees?‑‑‑Yes they are.

PN570

And once they start working it doesn't take them long to pick up the job that they're doing and do it competently?‑‑‑Some of the younger ones require a bit more training but with the older casual staff, no, they're all - I love them all. They're good.

PN571

And do they tend to stay with you?‑‑‑Yes, and I don't have many. Until the students, you know, move on to uni or move on to different avenues in their life they tend to stay with me.

PN572

Thank you, Ms Elson?‑‑‑Thank you.

*** JOANNE ELSON XXN MR FRIEND

PN573

JUSTICE ROSS: Re‑examination?

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WHEELAHAN [1.52 PM]

PN574

MR WHEELAHAN: Yes.

PN575

Ms Elson, you were taken to the figures at paragraphs 29 to 30 and corrected as to the percentage terms of what the increase would be to casual rates, that yours was not just on the ordinary time rate but it included the current loading?‑‑‑Yes. Yes.

PN576

If you were to accept the proposition as my learned friend said, we'll take Saturday for example. He said, well, it would be an increase I think he said of 11.1 per cent. Would that make a difference, any difference at all to the conclusions accepting that there would be an increase in labour costs that you've set out at paragraphs 34 and 36 and 35. Sorry, 34 to 36?‑‑‑Even though my maths is not always at its best and my adding up is wrong, I would still seriously consider changing the structure of my Saturdays if the rates were to go up. It's just - you know, even at 11.1 per cent it's a massive jump for me.

PN577

All right. Thank you.

PN578

JUSTICE ROSS: I think I gave the wrong exhibit number. It should be exhibit ARA3. So if we can mark that. Nothing further for the witness?

PN579

Thank you for your evidence, Ms Elson, you're excused.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [1.54 PM]

PN580

MR WHEELAHAN: I call Mr Campbell Vears.

PN581

THE ASSOCIATE: Please state your full name and address.

PN582

MR VEARS: Campbell Vears, (address supplied).

<CAMPBELL VEARS, AFFIRMED [1.54 PM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR WHEELAHAN [1.54 PM]

PN583

*** JOANNE ELSON RXN MR WHEELAHAN

*** CAMPBELL VEARS XN MR WHEELAHAN

MR WHEELAHAN: Mr Vears, your full name is Campbell Vears. Correct?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.

PN584

And your address is (address supplied)?‑‑‑15A.

PN585

15A?‑‑‑Yes.

PN586

All right, I'll just amend that at paragraph 1 of your statement, and your occupation?‑‑‑Duty manager casual worker at IGA.

PN587

All right, and you've prepared a statement that's of 10 paragraphs with a date of 23 July 2018 on the second page?‑‑‑Yes, that's correct.

PN588

Do you have any changes that you want to make to that statement?‑‑‑No thank you.

PN589

Is it true and correct in every particular?‑‑‑Yes.

PN590

I tender that statement.

PN591

JUSTICE ROSS: I'll mark that exhibit ARA4.

EXHIBIT #ARA4 WITNESS STATEMENT OF CAMPBELL VEARS DATED 23/07/2018

PN592

MR WHEELAHAN: Thank you.

PN593

JUSTICE ROSS: Mr Friend?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FRIEND [1.55 PM]

PN594

MR FRIEND: Mr Vears, how long have you been at Mount Barker IGA?‑‑‑Three years.

PN595

Three years, and how did you get the job?‑‑‑Just through applying. Putting my résumé in and then giving them a call the next day.

*** CAMPBELL VEARS XXN MR FRIEND

PN596

Do you like the job?‑‑‑Yes, it's good.

PN597

When you first started you were - you're 19 now, you were about 16 were you?‑‑‑Sixteen or 17, yes.

PN598

Yes. It was a hard job to learn?‑‑‑No. I've got good people skills so I picked it up fairly quickly I believe.

PN599

Fairly quickly? Yes. Now I think Ms Elson has told us that she has given you the opportunity to become a permanent employee?‑‑‑Yes, that is correct.

PN600

And you didn't want to take that up for a number of reasons. Correct?‑‑‑Yes. Correct.

PN601

All right. One of those reasons is that you get a 25 per cent loading as a casual?‑‑‑Yes.

PN602

Have you ever done a comparison between that loading and the advantages of being a permanent employee?‑‑‑I've weighed up the options and I prefer the flexibility of being a casual worker.

PN603

Yes, so it's not the money so much. It's the flexibility that you like?‑‑‑Yes, but I also like the money, I won't lie.

PN604

Of course. Yes, and one of the options you would have weighed up on the other side is paid holidays for instance?‑‑‑Yes. Correct.

PN605

Yes, okay, and sick leave, paid sick leave?‑‑‑Yes.

PN606

Yes, okay. But I think you say in paragraph 9 that you can move your hours around if you have a family or social event you want to attend. Yes?‑‑‑Yes.

PN607

And that's one of the flexibilities that you like as a casual employee?‑‑‑Yes, certainly.

PN608

But you're the duty manager on Fridays aren't you?‑‑‑Yes, that is correct.

*** CAMPBELL VEARS XXN MR FRIEND

PN609

And you wouldn't move or swap a Friday shift because you're the duty manager. Is that right?‑‑‑I would normally prefer not to, but I do have the flexibility that I can.

PN610

When was the last time you did it?‑‑‑I haven't done it yet and I don't plan to.

PN611

You don't plan to?‑‑‑No.

PN612

Now you'd agree that Friday is often a time when there are social engagements?‑‑‑Yes.

PN613

And so one of the things - it's a choice you've made - is you forego those sometimes in order to do the job at the IGA?‑‑‑Yes. Correct.

PN614

Thank you. Nothing further.

PN615

JUSTICE ROSS: Any re‑examination?

PN616

MR WHEELAHAN: No re‑examination.

PN617

JUSTICE ROSS: Mr Vears, do you have any general preference as to which days of the week you prefer to work or not work?‑‑‑Not really. I've worked - I used to work Saturdays and I didn't mind working them at all, so.

PN618

And now you're in your gap year, you still work Saturdays?‑‑‑No, not currently because I picked up the Friday instead of the Saturday.

PN619

Thank you.

PN620

Nothing further?

PN621

MR FRIEND: No.

PN622

JUSTICE ROSS: Thanks for your evidence, Mr Vears. You're excused.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [1.58 PM]

*** CAMPBELL VEARS XXN MR FRIEND

PN623

MR WHEELAHAN: I think we're Brisbane next.

PN624

JUSTICE ROSS: Do we know if they're there? We might - - -

PN625

THE ASSOCIATE: They're there.

PN626

JUSTICE ROSS: They're there, okay.

ASSOCIATE ATTEMPTING VIDEO LINK CONNECTION [1.59 PM]

PN627

JUSTICE ROSS: We might stand down for a couple of minutes while you sort it out.

SHORT ADJOURNMENT [2.00 PM]

RESUMED [2.07 PM]

PN628

JUSTICE ROSS: Thank you.

PN629

MR WHEELAHAN: I call Mr Terry Slaughter.

PN630

THE ASSOCIATE: Could you please state your full name and address.

PN631

MR SLAUGHTER: Terry Robert Slaughter, (address supplied).

<TERRY ROBERT SLAUGHTER, SWORN [2.08 PM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR WHEELAHAN [2.08 PM]

PN632

MR WHEELAHAN: Your full name is Terry Slaughter?‑‑‑Yes.

PN633

And your work address, can you state your work address?‑‑‑My work address, sorry - it's Shop 22, 31 Springfield Lakes Boulevard, Springfield Lakes.

PN634

And you're the director of Slaughter Enterprises Pty Ltd, which operates the Springfield Lakes IGA supermarket, correct?‑‑‑That's correct.

*** TERRY ROBERT SLAUGHTER XN MR WHEELAHAN

PN635

You've prepared a statement for these proceedings of 40 paragraphs, dated 23 July 2018?‑‑‑Yes.

PN636

If I can direct the Bench - a revised copy was emailed this morning to the Bench and the earlier copy should be disregarded. I have hard copies here if you'd like me to hand up - there are only some minor stylistic, expressional changes to paragraph 29. Are there any changes that you wish to make to that statement, Mr Slaughter?‑‑‑To the current statement or to - - -

PN637

Yes, to the one you - so the statement you have in front of you, if I direct you to paragraph 29, three lines from the bottom of that paragraph, there is a figure of $14,787.50. Is that what appears in the statement in front of you?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN638

Yes, all right. You have the correct version. Have you read that statement before you've entered the witness box?‑‑‑Yes.

PN639

Is it true and correct in every particular?‑‑‑Yes.

PN640

I tender that statement, if the Commission pleases.

PN641

JUSTICE ROSS: I'll mark that exhibit ARA5.

EXHIBIT #ARA5 WITNESS STATEMENT OF TERRY ROBERT SLAUGHTER DATED 23/07/2018

PN642

MR WHEELAHAN: Thank you.

PN643

JUSTICE ROSS: Mr Friend?

PN644

MR FRIEND: Thank you, your Honour.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FRIEND [2.10 PM]

PN645

MR FRIEND: Mr Slaughter, you and your wife work in the business?‑‑‑Yes, we do.

PN646

Are you employees of the company, or do you have another arrangement?‑‑‑We're directors of the company. We work in the business, but we're not employees of the business. We're directors of the business.

*** TERRY ROBERT SLAUGHTER XXN MR FRIEND

PN647

So you work there and you take a share of the profits, effectively?‑‑‑Correct. Yes, that's right.

PN648

The figure that you've set yourself of 10 per cent direct labour costs is set in order to maintain that profitable operation?‑‑‑That's a figure that I try and control my labour cost to.

PN649

Yes, it's one of a number of factors that go into making the business profitable or unprofitable?‑‑‑Correct.

PN650

And you would try to control all of them to a greater or lesser extent, insofar as you can?‑‑‑Yes.

PN651

Of course you do need staff to get sales and to replenish the stock, correct?‑‑‑Yes.

PN652

And so it's not a question of being able to reduce the staff as far as you like to reduce that figure; you've got to have enough staff to do the work?‑‑‑That's correct. Without, I guess - from a cost benefit, it probably gets to the point where if I have to reduce that wage figure further, myself or my wife will have to pick up the slack, if you like.

PN653

Yes, the work needs to be done?‑‑‑Yes. Yes, that's correct.

PN654

For instance, at the beginning of July last year there was a national wage increase, do you recall that?‑‑‑Yes.

PN655

And you obviously had to increase wages by 3.3 per cent, I think it was, do you recall that?‑‑‑Correct, yes.

PN656

Did you change the hours that were worked at that stage to take account of that?‑‑‑No, I didn't reduce the hours.

PN657

What about this year when the 3.5 per cent increase came in on 1 July?‑‑‑I did initially, but I think the - the end result is I absorbed most of that rise into the business.

PN658

Is one of the things that helped you absorb that - sorry, I should preface this - do you trade on Sundays?‑‑‑Yes.

*** TERRY ROBERT SLAUGHTER XXN MR FRIEND

PN659

So one of the things that helped you absorb that, the reduction in penalty rates on Sundays?‑‑‑To a certain extent, yes.

PN660

Can I just get you to turn to paragraph 17, please? How many casuals do you employ on the morning shift?‑‑‑On any given day, or is this during the week?

PN661

Well let's start with the weekdays?‑‑‑Nil.

PN662

Nil? What about on Saturdays and Sundays?‑‑‑Saturdays, it would be - what, in the morning?

PN663

Yes, just the morning shift?‑‑‑Yes, morning shifts, 100 per cent; all casuals.

PN664

And Sundays?‑‑‑I'd say 70 per cent. There is one permanent person that works every Sunday.

PN665

What about the mid‑shift, doing that same thing - weekdays?‑‑‑The mid‑shift is 100 per cent.

PN666

100 per cent casual?‑‑‑Sorry. Sorry, mid-shift on the Sunday is 100 per cent casual.

PN667

What about on Saturday then?‑‑‑Saturday, the mid‑shift is 100 per cent casual.

PN668

And weekdays?‑‑‑The mid-shift - look, it varying days, depending on loads, because the casuals do make up a fair component of filling stock when the loads come in on the Tuesday and the Thursday. However, it'd be a smallish proportion, say, up to maybe 30 per cent.

PN669

And if then we go the evening shift?‑‑‑Well during the weekdays it's 72 per cent. I have one permanent person who is the senior, or the supervisor. The rest are casuals for that - - -

PN670

Saturdays, I'm assuming they're all casuals in the evening?‑‑‑All casuals again, and on Sunday, all casuals again.

PN671

Do you pay the casuals any loading after 6 pm on a Saturday?‑‑‑No.

*** TERRY ROBERT SLAUGHTER XXN MR FRIEND

PN672

So they get the 10 per cent loading up to 6 and then nothing after that?‑‑‑They get - yes, just their casual - just the casual rate.

PN673

Just the casual loading?‑‑‑Correct.

PN674

Yes, but there's no penalty for working on the Saturday?‑‑‑No.

PN675

Can we look at paragraph 19? We might have partly answered this. You say you aim to roster one senior permanent staff member to oversee the weekday/evening shift and three casuals. In 21 though, you say that, "Our casual employee, Rebecca, supervises the Monday to Friday evening shift." So is there another supervisor on in the evenings, apart from Rebecca?‑‑‑That's correct. So Rebecca predominantly works Monday and Friday nights, because that's her availabilities, if you like. She was a weekend person. She did every weekend, but that became a little inhibitive on her family life. So she asked if she could do a couple of shifts during the week. I accommodated that and said, look, I already have, you know, permanent or people that are working those shifts, however, I can move them around for you to work on Monday night and Friday night. I even (?) offered, you know, some sort of permanency around that. She chooses to have the flexibility of casual, so we've locked that in and then Joan McCormick, who is a senior - that's permanent part‑time - works Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday nights to oversee the staff.

PN676

Thank you. Could I take you through to 28? You've calculated the casual hours that are worked on weekday evenings in a financial year, and then you've calculated the average hourly rate. I assume you've just added up the amounts that are paid and divided it by those number of hours worked, is that right?‑‑‑Yes. Yes, you can assume that.

PN677

And that gives you a total amount paid over the year of just shy of $60,000, correct?‑‑‑Correct, in that period.

PN678

You say that if the penalty rate was introduced, you would have to spend $1421 on labour costs each week. That's additional, is it?‑‑‑No. That's in that - no, that's not additional per week.

PN679

That's your total labour costs, is that right?‑‑‑For that period, for that evening shift.

PN680

For the evening shift, including the permanents?‑‑‑Correct.

*** TERRY ROBERT SLAUGHTER XXN MR FRIEND

PN681

And you say that therefore it's $14,787 more per year, is that right?‑‑‑If that 25 per cent was introduced, yes.

PN682

When you did that calculation on the 25 per cent, you just multiplied 59,150 by 25 per cent - well, 125, didn't you?‑‑‑That's correct.

PN683

You realise that the claim is for the loading on the base rate, not on the rate including the casual loading?‑‑‑Yes, okay. Well I mean we go back to the normal rate per hour. That wasn't - it's very difficult to quantify a figure that's, as I said, it's casual and it's very dynamic as well. I mean, some - - -

PN684

These - sorry, sorry?‑‑‑Yes.

PN685

These figures are fairly fluid is what you're saying?‑‑‑Well they are but I mean that would be my best estimation of the additional that I would be - have to spend to maintain what I've got in operation at my store. Now there are some nights that are extremely busy and I might have to put an extra two casuals on that evening as well.

PN686

Of course, if they're extremely busy, you're selling more merchandise, I assume, and making more money, correct?‑‑‑Well that's right.

PN687

That's wrong, did you say?‑‑‑No, that's right.

PN688

That's right?‑‑‑But again, it's not - it's - yes, it's ‑ when I say it's busy, I mean I'm - because I have Lotto as well in my store and Lotto's not necessarily greatly profitable but it tends to be on those big draw nights a fairly - a difficult one to operate with very limited return. Does that make sense?

PN689

Well it does but you have it in there because it's good for the business, don't you?‑‑‑Yes, it is. It's good for foot traffic. Foot traffic doesn't necessarily always transcend to sales but, again, it's a fine line between getting that casual person in and having the business operate fluently and profitably.

*** TERRY ROBERT SLAUGHTER XXN MR FRIEND

PN690

Sure. Anyway, back to where I started on this. I've suggested to you that the amount you've got is too much because you've increased the casual rate with loading by 25 percent instead of 20 percent. You don't disagree with that, do you?‑‑‑No, look, I don't disagree with that but look, any percentage increase on those hours, I just don't have the cash flow to cover. I just - I cannot see where the extra funds are coming from.

PN691

Well Mr Slaughter, one thing you don't tell us in your statement is what the gross profit or sales are for the year. We don't know anything about that?‑‑‑Well would you like to know?

PN692

Well I'm just asking if it's in your statement?‑‑‑No, it's not.

PN693

Why didn't you put it in?‑‑‑Well I didn't think it was relevant to this.

PN694

Well it might help to tell us how much of an increase the 12 or so thousand is in terms of your total operating income, so what's the total amount for the year?‑‑‑Well the - - -

PN695

What's the total amount that you take in a year?‑‑‑The total amount?

PN696

Yes, of sales?‑‑‑Of profit or sales?

PN697

Sales?‑‑‑My sales are around $6 million a year.

PN698

$6 million a year?‑‑‑Yes.

PN699

This 14,700 even if that's right, that's just a tick under $300 a week, isn't it?‑‑‑Yes, I haven't worked that out but, yes, let's - - -

PN700

Well that's all right. It's just a question of maths?‑‑‑Yes, yes.

PN701

All right. Similarly, when you've calculated the amounts for Saturdays, you've done the same thing in terms of adding the additional 15 percent?‑‑‑No, there's no permanents.

PN702

Pardon?‑‑‑There's no permanents on Saturday.

PN703

No? Permanents?‑‑‑There's no permanents on Saturday.

PN704

No, no - - -?‑‑‑It's 100 percent casual.

*** TERRY ROBERT SLAUGHTER XXN MR FRIEND

PN705

I understand that and in relation to those casuals, the cost, the additional cost, you've calculated is 15 percent of what you pay, yes?‑‑‑Yes.

PN706

I suggest it should be 11.1 percent but I'm just giving you an opportunity to comment. It's not a maths test, Mr Slaughter. I just have to give you an opportunity to comment, if you want to disagree with that. All right. Would it be fair to say that casuals are good workers?‑‑‑Yes, they are.

PN707

That when they're employed at - I assume most of them employed at level one under the award?‑‑‑Yes, all of them are.

PN708

All of the?‑‑‑Except for the ones that are - some of them are supervisory duties.

PN709

Supervisory work, yes?‑‑‑That's right.

PN710

In terms of doing that work, it doesn't take a long time for a person to learn how to do the job well, correct?‑‑‑Well it depends. I mean if you're talking about the supervisory duties - - -

PN711

No, no, I'm talking about the level ones, sorry?‑‑‑Level ones, no, it's a matter of months.

PN712

Yes. No, I won't ask anything. That's all, thank you.

PN713

JUSTICE ROSS: Mr Slaughter, can I just take you to paragraph 35?‑‑‑Yes.

PN714

How have you calculated the amount, the additional $6290.86?‑‑‑I've taken the - so the rate that would have to be introduced at 25 percent, I've taken 25 percent of the casuals working the evening on average. So for how many casuals I would have to employ for that period, I would ‑ ‑ ‑

PN715

When you say the - this is on the Saturday?‑‑‑Saturday, yes. Just remembering that Saturday evening is 100 percent casual.

PN716

Yes, so it's between 6.00 and 9.00 pm?‑‑‑Correct. On average. I mean, as I said, that's dynamic as well.

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WHEELAHAN [2.27 PM]

*** TERRY ROBERT SLAUGHTER RXN MR WHEELAHAN

PN717

MR WHEELAHAN: Mr Slaughter, I'm just in re-examination, it appears in doing the calculations you have ascertained your current labour costs for casual employees, both the weekday evening and the Saturdays, you've got that cost, the current cost, and simply added 25 percent to it to come up with a theoretical calculation, is that right?‑‑‑That's right.

PN718

All right?‑‑‑Either way, it's an increase.

PN719

Well I'll ask the question here. You can give me that answer. Paragraphs 29 to 35, if one was to assume that you've over-estimated the amount of the increase but it's an increase anyway, do the propositions that you've put in those paragraphs change, ie that you would react absent, any other measures, by reducing hours worked?‑‑‑Absolutely. I can't afford any increase in my business, so if - and on my calculations was 845 but let's say for the exercise, it was an extra 600 hours - - -

PN720

Yes, so the - - -?‑‑‑that I would have to reduce, it still ‑ I would still have to reduce that and that - - -

PN721

All right, so the principle is the same, is that what you're saying?‑‑‑Absolutely. The calculations are - I mean, I guess they're there, they're a bit dynamic and maybe over-stretched but the reality is there is an increase and on the 845, equates to about 16 hours a week so if we - say it's 14 hours a week, that 14 hours I don't think I'd remove them from employment but those casual employees would lose hours.

PN722

My learned friend asked you or pointed out that you didn't include in your statement the profit or loss of the business and he's asked you what the sales were per year, that they were 6 million. Can I ask you this, even if you included your total sales, your profit and any other financial data, if you included that in this statement again would it change your conclusions that you've set out at paragraph 29 and 35 as to how you would deal with an increase in the cost of labour because of an increase in casual rates?‑‑‑I'm sorry, you might have to repeat the question mate, and - - -

PN723

That's fine. You've accepted your principles in paragraph 29 and 35 that if there's an increase in the cost of labour for casuals you will react in other measures by reducing hours, correct?‑‑‑Yes.

*** TERRY ROBERT SLAUGHTER RXN MR WHEELAHAN

PN724

Now my second question is this. You were asked about your total sales per year and you said they were 6 million, correct?‑‑‑Around that, everything, including GST.

PN725

Around that, including GST?‑‑‑Yes.

PN726

Now if that fact was in your statement does it alter your evidence about how you would react to an increase in casual rates?‑‑‑No.

PN727

No, thank you. No further questions.

PN728

JUSTICE ROSS: Thank you for your evidence, Mr Slaughter. You're excused.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [2.31 PM]

PN729

MR WHEELAHAN: I call Mr Freeman.

PN730

THE ASSOCIATE: Please state your full name and address.

PN731

MR FREEMAN: Jordan James Freeman, (address supplied).

<JORDAN JAMES FREEMAN, AFFIRMED [2.32 PM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR WHEELAHAN [2.32 PM]

PN732

MR WHEELAHAN: Mr Freeman, please state your full name?‑‑‑Jordan James Freeman.

PN733

You're a casual employer Springfield Lakes IGA?‑‑‑That is correct.

PN734

You've prepared a statement for these proceedings of 10 paragraphs dated 23 July 2018?‑‑‑Yes, that is correct.

PN735

Are there any changes that you wish to make to that statement?‑‑‑No, there is not.

PN736

Is it true and correct in every particular?‑‑‑As far as I know yes, it is.

*** JORDAN JAMES FREEMAN XN MR WHEELAHAN

PN737

I tender that if the Commission pleases.

PN738

JUSTICE ROSS: Mark that exhibit ARA6.

EXHIBIT #ARA6 WITNESS STATEMENT OF JORDAN JAMES FREEMAN DATED 23/07/2018

PN739

Mr Friend?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FRIEND [2.33 PM]

PN740

MR FRIEND: Mr Freeman, could you turn to paragraph 9 of your statement please. You say that you can vary your work in line with your availability which changes depending upon sporting and social commitments and the hours your employer makes available, yes?‑‑‑Yes.

PN741

How are those hours made available?‑‑‑Just through - sorry, what were you asking, sorry?

PN742

How are the hours made available by your employer?‑‑‑Just from what he offers me, that's all I know.

PN743

Then you get to pick if you want to work at that time?‑‑‑Yes.

PN744

I imagine there's a tension sometimes between wanting to do a sporting or social commitment or undertake some work. Is that right?‑‑‑Yes, there can be.

PN745

Yes, I get the impression from your statement that you're someone that likes to work as much as you can?‑‑‑Yes, that is true.

PN746

I suppose therefore it would be fair to say that working at weekends and evenings means sometimes that you miss out on things that you might otherwise like?‑‑‑I can always change those hours, so if I'm rostered on a night and I need to do something at night I can always change it.

PN747

You know you can change shifts if you're part-time too, don't you? Swap shifts?‑‑‑No, I did not.

PN748

But in any event, there must be occasions where you feel it's more important to go to work than to do the social engagement or the sporting engagement?‑‑‑Yes, it can be.

*** JORDAN JAMES FREEMAN XXN MR FRIEND

PN749

What level are you working at? Are you doing any supervisory duties, Mr Freeman, or - - -?‑‑‑I am on weekends, yes.

PN750

On weekends, right. The rest of the week you just do the normal duties of the other casuals?‑‑‑Yes, so on somedays I just do stock handling and some on service.

PN751

The level one duties that you do, they don't take long to pick up?‑‑‑No, not at all.

PN752

Very well, I've nothing further to ask you, thank you.

PN753

MR WHEELAHAN: No re-examination.

PN754

VICE PRESIDENT HATCHER: So Mr Freeman, you're not studying at the moment?‑‑‑No, not at the moment.

PN755

So what are the days that you currently prefer to work on?‑‑‑Tuesday through to Thursday and both days of the weekend.

PN756

Why do you prefer those days to work on?‑‑‑Monday to Friday I always like to do stuff with the family when they're at home so that's the reason.

PN757

Thank you.

PN758

MR WHEELAHAN: Thank you, no re-examination.

PN759

JUSTICE ROSS: Thank you for your evidence, Mr Freeman, you're excused.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [2.36 PM]

PN760

MR WHEELAHAN: I call Ms Anita Dorwald.

PN761

THE ASSOCIATE: Please state your full name and address.

PN762

MS DORWALD: Anita Monique Dorwald, (address supplied).

*** JORDAN JAMES FREEMAN XXN MR FRIEND

<ANITA MONIQUE DORWALD, AFFIRMED [2.37 PM]

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR WHEELAHAN [2.37 PM]

PN763

MR WHEELAHAN: Your name is Anita Dorwald?‑‑‑Correct.

PN764

You're the chief operating officer of City Beach - sorry, you're the chief operating officer of your City Beach retail business, correct?‑‑‑Correct.

PN765

Your work address is Level 23, 239 George Street, Brisbane in the State of Queensland?‑‑‑That is correct.

PN766

You've prepared a statement for these proceedings dated 23 July 2018 of 30 paragraphs?‑‑‑Yes, I have.

PN767

You have a change to paragraph 25 of that statement?‑‑‑Yes, correct.

PN768

At paragraph 25 in the last line the word "increase" should be changed to "imposition"?‑‑‑Correct.

PN769

Do you have any other changes to that statement?‑‑‑No, I believe that's all.

PN770

Is it otherwise true and correct in every particular?‑‑‑Yes.

PN771

I tender that statement.

PN772

JUSTICE ROSS: I'll mark that statement exhibit ARA7.

EXHIBIT #ARA7 WITNESS STATEMENT OR ANITA MONIQUE DORWALD DATED 23/07/2018

PN773

Mr Friend.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FRIEND [2.39 PM]

*** ANITA MONIQUE DORWALD XN MR WHEELAHAN

*** ANITA MONIQUE DORWALD XXN MR FRIEND

PN774

MR FRIEND: Just turn to paragraph 25 again please, Ms Dorwald. Where you said - you've changed 25 per cent increase to 25 per cent imposition to the casual Saturday penalty rate. What's the difference?‑‑‑I'm sorry, are you directing that question to me, yes?

PN775

Yes, I am. The difference is that I didn't want to imply that there would be a 25 per cent increase directly. It's a 25 per cent imposition as I understand it but given that we already have a 10 per cent penalty applied on our Saturday rates, really the net differential is a 15 per cent impost, which was reflective of that numeric calculation.

PN776

I see. So you say it's a 15 per cent increase?‑‑‑Well, if it is a 25 per cent impost on the business, that is reflective of the calculation.

PN777

If it's a 25 per cent penalty instead of a 10 per cent penalty it's an - - -?‑‑‑Correct.

PN778

- - - 11 per cent increase isn't it?‑‑‑It's a - I'm sorry, if it's a?

PN779

Just let me finish the questions. If it's a 25 per cent penalty instead of a 10 per cent penalty all based on the same figure, hourly rate - - -?‑‑‑Yes. Yes.

PN780

It's not a 15 per cent increase it's an 11 per cent increase?‑‑‑No it's a - correct, it's a 15 per cent differential.

PN781

Okay, you agree it's an 11 per cent increase?‑‑‑I agree that it's a 25 per cent impost which is what my statement is I suppose trying to state.

PN782

Well, don't say you would agree with something I haven't said. That doesn't help us, Ms Dorwald?‑‑‑Sorry.

PN783

If the payment is an hourly rate and it's a 10 per cent on that, you're getting 110 per cent of the hourly rate?‑‑‑Correct.

PN784

If it then becomes 125 per cent of the hourly rate - - -?‑‑‑Correct.

PN785

It's an 11 per cent increase on what you're paying now?‑‑‑Correct.

PN786

Okay, now the great preponderance of people at the City Beach workforce are on junior rates of pay?‑‑‑Yes, I would suggest that in terms of our casual employment base that is correct. We have a large proportion of people who are juniors.

*** ANITA MONIQUE DORWALD XXN MR FRIEND

PN787

And the vast preponderance are casuals. Correct?‑‑‑Yes, 85 per cent. Correct.

PN788

85 per cent, and a significant amount of trading is done at times that would normally attract penalty rates for permanent employees; evenings and on Saturdays and Sundays?‑‑‑Correct.

PN789

Okay, and you say at paragraph 24 that a 25 per cent penalty rate for weekday evenings would result in an increase of 7,820 in wages costs per week. Is that right?‑‑‑Mm‑hm.

PN790

How did you calculate that?‑‑‑I've actually given this to my head of retail to calculate. I have not done the direct calculations, but they have been vetted by both my apparel manager and my CFO.

PN791

So you can't tell us anything about how that figure is arrived at?‑‑‑No, I trust that they have actually looked at the wages bill that they are accountable for and presenting to the directors every week and - - -

PN792

You're the one that's here on - - -?‑‑‑- - - looking at the relevant systems.

PN793

- - - oath giving evidence, Ms Dorwald. You can't tell us how that's calculated. Is that right?‑‑‑In - with respect to how it's calculated they have calculated that that 25 per cent impost would impose, that 25 per cent increase on that weekday penalty between the hours of six and nine as I understand it.

PN794

And you can't tell us how that was done?‑‑‑Mathematically, no.

PN795

I assume we're in the same position when we ask how you arrived at the 19,102 hours that have to be changed. Is that right?‑‑‑Once again I am not in direct control of rostering or managing wages for the business. This is something that I have deferred to my head of retail whose direct purview wages fall under.

PN796

So you can't tell us how that figure was arrived at?‑‑‑Well, no. Specifically if you are asking for the mathematical calculations behind it, I'd be more than happy to provide you with the reports that - from whence those figures were derived but, no.

*** ANITA MONIQUE DORWALD XXN MR FRIEND

PN797

I'm just asking you to explain the process by which they were arranged, how the mathematical calculations were done. Just the method, if you can tell us that?‑‑‑Yes, so the method was effectively that we obviously have you know, fairly comprehensive rostering in place and fairly comprehensive wage management processes in place. And so, effectively the team have looked at what the current costs across the business are based on our current staffing profile as described throughout my statement. They've looked at those costs and created or calculated what the difference would be should these proposed rates come into effect.

PN798

So they just added 25 per cent to those figures, is that right?‑‑‑Well, I don't think it was that simple because I think obviously there are quite a number of vagaries in those hours that need to be considered with regards to, you know, when people start and finish. And so it did have to be isolated so that we only captured the relevant hours between that the penalty rates would apply.

PN799

So added 25 per cent to the hours that were worked after 6 pm on weekdays, is that what you mean?‑‑‑So after - for the penalty rate on top of the casual loading, yes, indeed.

PN800

All right. Now that 19,102 seems to be a 37.8 per cent reduction in hours?‑‑‑I'm sorry, which number are you referring to?

PN801

The 19,102 at paragraph 24?‑‑‑Right, yes.

PN802

So do you know how that has been - can you make any sense of that for us?‑‑‑Look, once again as I said I have not calculated these numbers directly. I have deferred that to my head of retail and he has provided those calculations based on the wage tools that he has at his disposal and the rostering tools.

PN803

Okay. Thank you, and if you've got to have a 37.8 per cent reduction in hours to set off the wage increase that means that the increase is some $406,000 per year. Is that what you come to?‑‑‑Correct.

PN804

Again, you can't really tell us how you've arrived at that?‑‑‑No, I'm sorry I can't be of assistance in that matter.

PN805

All right. Can I suggest that the 37 per cent increase just doesn't make any sense?

PN806

JUSTICE ROSS: Reduction.

PN807

MR FRIEND: Pardon?

*** ANITA MONIQUE DORWALD XXN MR FRIEND

PN808

JUSTICE ROSS: 37 per cent reduction.

PN809

MR FRIEND: Reduction. No, it's an increase in wages.

PN810

JUSTICE ROSS: I see.

PN811

MR FRIEND: To account for the reduction. I won't take it any further.

PN812

You're dealing with Sundays and you tell us there are 178,360 casual hours worked over the year on a Sunday?‑‑‑I believe that's correct, yes.

PN813

Yes, and you say that if there was a 25 per cent increase - sorry, of a Saturday I should say. I think I said Sunday?‑‑‑We're talking about Saturdays.

PN814

I'm sorry?‑‑‑Yes. That's okay.

PN815

You tell us in 25, paragraph 25, that nearly 41,000 hours per year would have to be reduced to offset the increase. Is that right?‑‑‑Yes.

PN816

So you - - -?‑‑‑Once again - yes.

PN817

So you're assuming the increase is 25 per cent on Saturdays?‑‑‑No, the point is that it actually is - the impost will be a total of 25 per cent as distinct from where we are now which is the casual loading.

PN818

But you understand that you're already paying 10 per cent?‑‑‑Correct.

PN819

So why do you need to take off 40,000 hours?‑‑‑So that's the total number of hours over the course of the rosters that would need to be adjusted, allowing for shifts, because it's not necessarily a linear correlation between hours and dollars. You need to still be - you have to massage the rosters in such a way that you still have coverage on the floor and that those hours add up. So that it's not a direct line comparison, which I'm assuming is perhaps where you're trying to come from in order to understand how these numbers are related. But what my retail team have done is had a complete look at the rosters and understood the start and the finish times and actually worked out what that would mean in true numbers for the business.

*** ANITA MONIQUE DORWALD XXN MR FRIEND

PN820

Well, Ms Dorwald - - -?‑‑‑If they had to change this in response to the additional costs that would be imposed upon the business.

PN821

You can't explain any of these figures other than by saying it's what your retail team have calculated, can you?‑‑‑No. I have said that from the beginning, that these are the numbers that my retail team and my CFO have provided and calculated and they've been vetted and I trust that they are correct.

PN822

So you're asking the Commission just to adopt your position of trust in relation to your retail team, because we can't test what you've done, can we?‑‑‑Well, as I have said I am more than happy to provide the information to support how these calculations have been derived. I certainly don't necessarily expect that one would base any decisions on that level of trust.

PN823

Thank you?‑‑‑So more than happy to do that. I'm not in possession of those today but can certainly furnish them.

PN824

Now you haven't told us anywhere what the total wages bill of City Beach is?‑‑‑No.

PN825

You haven't told us what the level of profitability is?‑‑‑No.

PN826

You haven't told us what the total sales are?‑‑‑No.

PN827

All right. Now is it a straightforward correlation that if wages costs increase, hours go down?‑‑‑Well, to a large extent especially in the casual arena that is often the case. It's not a direct correlation dollar for dollar, hour for hour, but the stores certainly have to come in within their wages to sales percentage ratios that have been set by the owners of the business in order to maintain acceptable levels of operating profitability. And if there is an increase in wages, yes, often there is a revisiting of hours that are available.

PN828

And those acceptable levels of operating profitability as you describe it are figures set by the owners of the business as what they want. Correct?‑‑‑They are indeed, but they are set at levels that I would suggest in the current retail climate are exceedingly modest and designed to keep us trading with the doors open.

PN829

Now when there was a 3.3 per cent award increase in 2017 was there a reduction in hours across the board?‑‑‑There was, yes.

*** ANITA MONIQUE DORWALD XXN MR FRIEND

PN830

And so you were employing too many people before that increase, were you?‑‑‑No that's not it at all. We constantly struggle to maintain a balance between our - I suppose our cost and our overheads and the customer service levels that we offer, as well as the operating requirements of each location.

PN831

And when there was a 3.5 per cent increase on 1 July this year, again did you reduce hours?‑‑‑Once again there was a reconsolidation of some hours in some locations. Like I said it's not a linear correlation so that's not a direct "Right, 3.5 per cent comes off to offset the costs". That's not the expectation. We obviously do what we can do to increase sales as well. It is the ratio of wages to sales that we try and maintain, so we maintain that in a number of ways.

PN832

So once again you were employing too many - or having too many hours worked before that increase, if you could shave off a bit more fat. Is that right?‑‑‑I don't know that you would describe it as fat. I think every retailer would like to have more people on the floor and offer more customer service. I don't think that that's sort of an unusual position to take. But it's certainly a matter of trying to maintain a balance between - in our operating costs.

PN833

So with the reduction in Sunday penalty rates from 1 July this year you've put more people on the floor on Sundays, have you?‑‑‑In some stores yes we have.

PN834

Not in all stores?‑‑‑No, not in all stores. We're not driven as I said directly by the correlation in the dollars. Each store is assessed on its needs basis and its trading patterns.

PN835

All right. You don't have anything about Sunday work in your statement, do you?‑‑‑No.

PN836

Ms Dorwald, I'd suggest that these figures in your statement are poorly presented. They provide inadequate information and are simply designed to paint an alarmist picture in order to oppose this application. Do you agree with that?‑‑‑I don't agree with that.

PN837

Thank you?‑‑‑I appreciate that might be your perspective given my inability to answer as to the nature or the methodology behind the calculations, so I appreciate how you may have arrived at that observation. However I have worked in this business for an extremely long time and I work alongside my head of retail and watch on a daily basis as he juggles the needs of the business with the rising costs that our wages bill implies, and I am confident that if, you know, he were faced with these decisions, that this would be a very real possibility.

*** ANITA MONIQUE DORWALD XXN MR FRIEND

PN838

Thank you, Ms Dorwald?‑‑‑So am certainly confident in endorsing this position.

PN839

JUSTICE ROSS: Any re‑examination?

PN840

MR WHEELAHAN: No, your Honour.

PN841

JUSTICE ROSS: So just to be clear, you're currently operating under an enterprise agreement. Is that right?‑‑‑No, we are operating under the General Retail Award. We have an enterprise agreement in our distribution centre only.

PN842

I see. All right, thank you. Thank you for your evidence, you're excused.

<THE WITNESS WITHDREW [2.53 PM]

PN843

JUSTICE ROSS: Does that complete the evidence?

PN844

MR WHEELAHAN: Yes, your Honour.

PN845

JUSTICE ROSS: So we'll adjourn until 2 pm tomorrow.

PN846

MR WHEELAHAN: Thank you, your Honour.

ADJOURNED UNTIL WEDNESDAY, 15 AUGUST 2018 [2.53 PM]

*** ANITA MONIQUE DORWALD XXN MR FRIEND

LIST OF WITNESSES, EXHIBITS AND MFIs

JEFFREY IAN BORLAND, AFFIRMED........................................................... PN46

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR FRIEND.................................................. PN46

EXHIBIT #SDA1 INGA LASS AND MARK WOODEN DOCUMENT "MEASUREMENT, PREVALENCE AND THE SOCIO-DEMOGRAPHIC STRUCTURE OF NON-STANDARD EMPLOYMENT: THE AUSTRALIAN CASE"................................................ PN60

EXHIBIT #SDA2 BUDDELMEYER, MCVICAR AND WOODEN DOCUMENT, "NON-STANDARD CONTINGENT EMPLOYMENT AND JOB SATISFACTION: A PANEL DATA ANALYSIS"............................................................................................................ PN66

EXHIBIT #SDA3 CEP DISCUSSION PAPER NO. 1428, DATED MAY 2016 PN69

EXHIBIT #SDA4 PARLIAMENTARY LIBRARY STATISTICAL SNAPSHOT ON "CHARACTERISTICS AND USE OF CASUAL EMPLOYEES IN AUSTRALIA" DATED 19/01/2018................................................................................................................. PN72

EXHIBIT #SDA5 REPORT OF PROFESSOR BORLAND.............................. PN76

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR WHEELAHAN............................................ PN77

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR FRIEND............................................................. PN170

THE WITNESS WITHDREW............................................................................ PN184

SEAN JAMES SANDS, AFFIRMED................................................................. PN188

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR WHEELAHAN..................................... PN188

EXHIBIT #ARA1 REPORT OF PROFESSOR SEAN JAMES SANDS....... PN203

EXHIBIT #ARA2 EXECUTIVE SUMMARY.................................................. PN208

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FRIEND..................................................... PN219

EXHIBIT #SDA6 GROUP SUMMARIES......................................................... PN393

EXHIBIT #SDA7 HIGHLIGHTS OF GROUP SUMMARIES....................... PN393

THE WITNESS WITHDREW............................................................................ PN428

JOANNE ELSON, AFFIRMED.......................................................................... PN469

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR WHEELAHAN..................................... PN469

EXHIBIT #ARA3 WITNESS STATEMENT OF JOANNE ELSON DATED 22/07/2018 PN484

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FRIEND..................................................... PN485

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WHEELAHAN................................................. PN573

THE WITNESS WITHDREW............................................................................ PN579

CAMPBELL VEARS, AFFIRMED................................................................... PN582

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR WHEELAHAN..................................... PN582

EXHIBIT #ARA4 WITNESS STATEMENT OF CAMPBELL VEARS DATED 23/07/2018................................................................................................................................. PN591

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FRIEND..................................................... PN593

THE WITNESS WITHDREW............................................................................ PN622

TERRY ROBERT SLAUGHTER, SWORN..................................................... PN631

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR WHEELAHAN..................................... PN631

EXHIBIT #ARA5 WITNESS STATEMENT OF TERRY ROBERT SLAUGHTER DATED 23/07/2018............................................................................................................... PN641

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FRIEND..................................................... PN644

RE-EXAMINATION BY MR WHEELAHAN................................................. PN716

THE WITNESS WITHDREW............................................................................ PN728

JORDAN JAMES FREEMAN, AFFIRMED.................................................... PN731

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR WHEELAHAN..................................... PN731

EXHIBIT #ARA6 WITNESS STATEMENT OF JORDAN JAMES FREEMAN DATED 23/07/2018............................................................................................................... PN738

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FRIEND..................................................... PN739

THE WITNESS WITHDREW............................................................................ PN759

ANITA MONIQUE DORWALD, AFFIRMED................................................ PN762

EXAMINATION-IN-CHIEF BY MR WHEELAHAN..................................... PN762

EXHIBIT #ARA7 WITNESS STATEMENT OR ANITA MONIQUE DORWALD DATED 23/07/2018............................................................................................................... PN772

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR FRIEND..................................................... PN773

THE WITNESS WITHDREW............................................................................ PN842